Requesting Advice on this Leaning Pine Tree

[rfwoody]

Greetings

Thanks for your consideration of my question.

============================================

This leaning Pine is in my own yard and I want to cut it down.

Other than the defect in the face, the tree appears healthy.

My plan would be:

1. shallow face cut, that gets past the defect in front.
2. bore cut, establishing a hinge of 10-15% of diameter.
3. stand back and cut the backstrap an inch or so below the plane of the bored back cut.
4. escape.

However... because of the (to me) severe lean ... and the defect where the face cut goes...

Therefore I am a little nervous -- because all the stored up tension --
-- the tree might do something unexpected (e.g. as soon as the tip of my saw starts the bore cut).

Are these excessive concerns warranted?
Is this just a "typical" leaner --- or something worse?



Side view... approx 90* to desired lay




Front view... pretty much in line of lay



Close up of defect in front where face cut goes


Is this tree just a "typical" leaner or rather something to be more extremely cautious of?
... assuming my cuts go according to plan.

Thanks!

 

[MasterBlaster]

It seems like you overthink all this, Robert. Set your line, make the cut and pull it over.

Am I missing something?

 

[Mick!]

It’s not an unexploded bomb. Just fell it.

 

[Nutball]

You cut it down already right? Good job!

Seriously, Put a rope in it, shallow face notch, borecut behind the hinge, cut toward the hinge until desired thickness acheived, cut back leaving a couple inches thick of rear holding strap, then pull out and make back cut just under lining up with bore cut, and it will pop and go.

I figure aiming your hinge line appropriately and pulling at the correct angle too would allow it to avoid smashing the log pile, not like it's too much concern.

I think I drew this up correctly


And if it falls 180 degrees backwards, you've got skill

 

[MasterBlaster]

I see no need for a rope. Just toss it, turn it a bit perhaps.

 

[Nutball]

I didn't read your initial post. I wouldn't worry about cutting beyond the defect. It doesn't affect the sides of the hinge, and you might end up chasing it too far back.

Your concerns are justified, I prefer being on the concerned side just to be safe, but nothing will probably happen. Just be ready and careful as you make the cuts.

 

[SkwerI]

Looks like a very old lightning strike. As Nutball said, the defect will not affect the hinge. Remember that the hings is the wood you DON'T cut, not the piece you cut out. The hinge is what bends and steers the tree. Since you are falling it with the lean there is very little chance of it going any other direction (unless you are very good or very bad). You have solid hinge wood on both sides. Whether or not it is hollow makes no difference in this case. The gap in the front has nothing to do with your hinge wood.

Can the people above who said to put a rope in it please explain to me what the purpose would be? What in the world would you do with a rope in that tree other than waste a bunch of time that you should have been running a saw?

 

[Nutball]

Can the people above who said to put a rope in it please explain to me what the purpose would be? What in the world would you do with a rope in that tree other than waste a bunch of time that you should have been running a saw?

For the practice. And maybe to help save the milled wood by pulling it aside.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Hey old buddy - I recanted and said just throw it. It 'twernt me!!!

 

[SkwerI]

IMO if the notch is so far off as for the tree to hit the lumber, then I can't see how a rope would help. As soon as the tree starts to move the rope would go slack and it will follow the hinge (and gravity) anyway. What exactly are you going to do with the rope to steer the tree? Pull it off at a 90 degree angle and tie it off to another tree? Might as well use a rope to pull a log out of a dump truck.

Doesn't seem like good advice in this situation. Unless you want to play the "put a rope in every tree no matter what" game. That is just a case of replacing reason and critical thinking with blind obedience to a self imposed rule.

And before Butch goes off on me telling me that I'm being mean again, I'm simply trying to get some educational discussion going instead of just blindly following rules about putting a rope in every tree without knowing exactly what happens or why. Robert has little knowledge or experience and if we are going to get off on a tangent it might as well be one that may be useful to his understanding.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Mean? YOU???

No way, bro.

 

[Nutball]

To be honest I think Butch got the rope idea in my head when I read his post, but I later thought that to avoid the wood pile, the lean angle might be steep enough as to need a rope to help guide it along with a properly aimed face cut. You could spring load the rope (or more so the tree) with enough tension right? That tension could help it get going in a direction that would miss the wood pile. I do agree though that a rope isn't really needed in this situation. At work I'm usually the last to suggest a rope, but it seems common practice and the safer thing to do, though often times I don't think we need it. Just cut it right. We had a tree go about 75 degrees to the side of the pull direction because someone didn't know how to cut a tree properly. It was being pulled by a truck too. No harm done except a couple small poplar branches in a neighbor's tree broken.

 

[SeanKroll]

Face cut, back cut fast, nice and even. Limb. buck.

If you're not up to a fast backcut to an even hinge, then sure, bore-cut and backstrap release.

Its pine, not straight-grain, forest-grown/ crowded-grown hardwood prone to barber-chairing.

 

[SeanKroll]

To be honest I think Butch got the rope idea in my head when I read his post, but I later thought that to avoid the wood pile, the lean angle might be steep enough as to need a rope to help guide it along with a properly aimed face cut. You could spring load the rope (or more so the tree) with enough tension right? That tension could help it get going in a direction that would miss the wood pile. I do agree though that a rope isn't really needed in this situation. At work I'm usually the last to suggest a rope, but it seems common practice and the safer thing to do, though often times I don't think we need it. Just cut it right. We had a tree go about 75 degrees to the side of the pull direction because someone didn't know how to cut a tree properly. It was being pulled by a truck too. No harm done except a couple small poplar branches in a neighbor's tree broken.

How did the tree fall in relation to the face-cut. The pull doesn't direct a well-faced tree any more than a wedge or gravity, while the hinge functions.

 

[Tree09]

So you have a tree that has a defect, and considerable side lean? Anything in the direction of the lay? If not, then why are you pulling it to the side? Please don't take this the wrong way, but have you ever done this before? If not, then are you doing this for hire or for someone? Once again targets that can be hit? Although this tree is run of the mill for many here, i think this may be out of your comfort zone at the moment.

 

[stig]

Since you are falling it with the lean there is very little chance of it going any other direction (unless you are very good or very bad).

This is great.
Very well put Brian.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I'm both!

 

[rfwoody]

It seems like you overthink all this, Robert. Set your line, make the cut and pull it over.

Am I missing something?

It’s not an unexploded bomb. Just fell it.

Butch, Mick ---- Asked and answered ----- that was my concern (seriously) that it might be like an "unexploded bomb"

that's all I needed to know but I personally am benefiting by everyone's responses!

You cut it down already right? Good job!

Seriously, Put a rope in it, shallow face notch, borecut behind the hinge, cut toward the hinge until desired thickness acheived, cut back leaving a couple inches thick of rear holding strap, then pull out and make back cut just under lining up with bore cut, and it will pop and go.

I figure aiming your hinge line appropriately and pulling at the correct angle too would allow it to avoid smashing the log pile, not like it's too much concern.

I think I drew this up correctly

(picture removed for space) ---- yes exactly! -----

And if it falls 180 degrees backwards, you've got skill

...................

I didn't read your initial post. I wouldn't worry about cutting beyond the defect. It doesn't affect the sides of the hinge, and you might end up chasing it too far back.

Your concerns are justified, I prefer being on the concerned side just to be safe, but nothing will probably happen. Just be ready and careful as you make the cuts.

Thanks Nutball!

Looks like a very old lightning strike. As Nutball said, the defect will not affect the hinge. Remember that the hings is the wood you DON'T cut, not the piece you cut out. The hinge is what bends and steers the tree. Since you are falling it with the lean there is very little chance of it going any other direction (unless you are very good or very bad). You have solid hinge wood on both sides. Whether or not it is hollow makes no difference in this case. The gap in the front has nothing to do with your hinge wood.

Can the people above who said to put a rope in it please explain to me what the purpose would be? What in the world would you do with a rope in that tree other than waste a bunch of time that you should have been running a saw?

Brian, thanks, sir. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your experienced advice with all the contextual reasoning!

For the practice. And maybe to help save the milled wood by pulling it aside.

Yes.... I currently have the luxury of not being a "production" worker ..... in this regard, time is on my side.

NOTE: that WAS a consideration ---- i.e. missing the logs and woodpile ---- but it wouldn't be the end of the world if I did hit it ---- as long as nothing catapulted off in the wrong direction.

Hey old buddy - I recanted and said just throw it. It 'twernt me!!!

IMO if the notch is so far off as for the tree to hit the lumber, then I can't see how a rope would help. As soon as the tree starts to move the rope would go slack and it will follow the hinge (and gravity) anyway. What exactly are you going to do with the rope to steer the tree? Pull it off at a 90 degree angle and tie it off to another tree? Might as well use a rope to pull a log out of a dump truck.

Doesn't seem like good advice in this situation. Unless you want to play the "put a rope in every tree no matter what" game. That is just a case of replacing reason and critical thinking with blind obedience to a self imposed rule.

And before Butch goes off on me telling me that I'm being mean again, I'm simply trying to get some educational discussion going instead of just blindly following rules about putting a rope in every tree without knowing exactly what happens or why. Robert has little knowledge or experience and if we are going to get off on a tangent it might as well be one that may be useful to his understanding.

Brian, maybe I might put a rope in it and anchor it out 50 or 60* from the lay and aim just to the side of the wood targets in front..... enough tension in the rope to keep it from going into the woodpiles? ............ if nothing else it would be a safe learning experience........... or is my physics off?

Face cut, back cut fast, nice and even. Limb. buck.

If you're not up to a fast backcut to an even hinge, then sure, bore-cut and backstrap release.

Its pine, not straight-grain, forest-grown/ crowded-grown hardwood prone to barber-chairing.

Sean, ha, I've seen too many of those BC Training videos so that I am afraid of a "fast backcut" ... (if a smiley face is not in-appropriate here)...

.... but, thanks for validating my thinking on this.

It seems I have seen Pine as a species that is more than average to barber chair (?) ..... not necessarily so?

So you have a tree that has a defect, and considerable side lean? Anything in the direction of the lay? If not, then why are you pulling it to the side? Please don't take this the wrong way, but have you ever done this before? If not, then are you doing this for hire or for someone? Once again targets that can be hit? Although this tree is run of the mill for many here, i think this may be out of your comfort zone at the moment.

Hey Kyle, thanks a lot for commenting! ..... ha just about every tree I do is out of my comfort zone ... heart always pumping ... adrenaline always going.... that is my challenge to be able to think clearly and calmly in these moments, right? ....
... yeah this is my own tree and my own stuff.... so no need to worry about damaging anyone else's stuff this time.
you know, around The Treehouse here, I hate to talk with any kind of confidence... or "push back" with any advice....being a pipsqueek among giants.... but it is a fact that I have cut down leaners with the face-cut, bore-cut, release the backstrap ......... but this one, ha, because of its extreme head lean (probably the most/widest one I have ever attempted) -- and the defect --- I did wonder if it was like a ticking time bomb, waiting to explode as soon as my saw touched it. ----- ha, totally irrational -- but that's what I wanted to verify here.

As far as skill and confidence............ I feel like if I could cut down 100 trees in a day, starting with 6" in diameter and moving up to 2 or 3' I think I would have my cutting skills dialed in pretty good --- still paying careful attention to every cut --- always knowing exactly where the bar/chain is..........but I think I would maybe be at sort of a plateau with a general confidence ---- i.e. that I *know* I will execute all cuts *exactly* according to pre-determined plan..... as it is, there is some doubt.... but i have to offset that doubt with extra time and care.

 

[SeanKroll]

Pine isn't a barberchair prone species. Straight-grained hardwoods are the big culprit, more forest grown, than open-grown, with more branches and knots.


How many degrees off the lean is the desired layout?

I don't hardly cut pine, so someone with species-experience will be able to tell you better... I bet you could swing that 35-45 degrees off the lay, with a proper facecut if the decay isn't substantial, no wedging or backcut. A wedge or pull rope could go way could go more, I'd bet.

This is a good tree to drill with a long 1/8-1/4" bit for practice reading the inside of the tree. Don't drill in the hinge area itself.


Coos-Bay cuts Can be set-up with extreme headleaners, and not rip. You end up with a strip of wood with more meat, but way more weight and leverage. I bet this would swing without collapsing or ripping.

Cut square to the fibers, not horizontal.

Cutting with the lean, is the best way to barberchair a barberchair-prone species...so I've been told by someone with 40 years experience in the PNW, including cutting big, notoriously dangerous, barberchair prone red alders. Cutting with a layout off to the side from the lean will resist, somewhat.

Cutting slowly adds fuel to the fire of a barberchair situation.

You can always hook a chain around the tree above the cut and below the cut, if you're worried. If you have a grab-hook, you can make the chain pretty tight, then shim with felling wedges to tension it.

 

[rfwoody]

How many degrees off the lean is the desired layout?

not more than 5 or 10 I'm thinking.
... I think I will try to lay it the 5 or 10* to the left (looking from the tree).

This is a good tree to drill with a long 1/8-1/4" bit for practice reading the inside of the tree. Don't drill in the hinge area itself.

Sean, what would I be looking for ... decay? thx.

Coos-Bay cuts Can be set-up with extreme headleaners, and not rip....

I thought about this possibility but don't trust my sawing skills to match up these cuts....
ALSO.... I remember reading a post where it said for the Coos-Bay the safest location to cut from is in front of the tree .... cutting in the lay .... that scares me with this.

therefore, I will just go with the bore cut I suppose.

Cut square to the fibers, not horizontal.

That is something I was wondering about.... are you talking about boring in with the saw angled 90* to the angle of the lean?
...thus cutting the wood fibers 90* to the direction they are running?
..... vs.....
boring in at 90* dead level .... and cutting the wood fibers at an obtuse angle (i.e. 90* + angle of lean).
?

I think before on leaners I've always just tried to bore in dead level.

 

[SeanKroll]

I wasn't suggesting you use a Coos Bay.

In a Coos bay, you have a center hinge-like strip of holding wood, that is cut of from the tension side toward compression. The weight of the tree wants to tear the holding wood, but it stays until cut.

I was saying that if the hinge is oriented to face a good degree off the lean, the hinge will be oriented somewhat like a Coos Bay. I bet you can steer it a fair degree off the lean, if you needed/ wanted to, without tearing the hinge, if cut to remain thicker on the tension side.




Cut perpendicular to the fibers not horizontal. If perpendicular to the fiber is horizontal, as often is the case, it Will be both perpendicular and horizontal.

 

[rfwoody]

just a sanity check of my understanding......... like this, correct?

 

[stig]

Yep.

 

[pantheraba]

Good picture, Robert. Good question too.

 

[theTreeSpyder]

As Sean etc. says perpendicular to the mechanix of the grain, which in felling is often (and so always pictured) as horizontal to the ground.
>>once again look beneath surface to real pivotal mechanix, peer-a-mid power !
.
Always seek to fall trees as 'monolith'; 1 moving part,that doesn't mechanically bind against dead end or another moving part.
.
Dealing blind to what is under the skin, would axe peel bark.
IF already had, might consider bind above/below cut area with chain or 10k web binders to maintain constitution of spar as cutting and serving forward.
Making sure tail etc. of upper device was locked out of the way of the cut, and kinda to side towards back for most sensitive parts.
>>work to maintain monolith imagery
>>you don't want to be pivoting this leveraged mass with competing layered linear 'plates' binding against each other or 1 leaving other behind etc.
.
From perspective of the defect
>>where is lean?
>>where is target?
Have to plot if unpredictable defect is where tapered hinge would be trying to pull from etc.
.
Learn to listen to gut, keep looking hard at this the whole way.
Even as cutting, doing exploratory surgery as still sizing up target.
.
Defect changes things of course.
But in standard heavy head lean i try not to add more leverage by not cutting in as deep for face.
And like some side fell so as not to feed into the most direct pull/fall angle
>>both to limit some fell forward force
.
i know how you might drool over an easy lay....
but generally advocate good time to practice tapered against sideLean technique, and help to lower hit also.
.
Hinge does try to automatically steer to face by pulling against sideLean harder in rear fibres to opposite side
>>AND face slap on lean side harder tossing to center face harder than other side
Both serving to facing;
So, 5degrees or so of sideLean i think hinge, especially thicker one can autocorrect by the auto-tension of rear fibres against side lean pulling harder than less loaded ones on other side
and final correction of the face slap auto correcting, simply slapping harder on more loaded side on close,
>>after full tour on hinge with rear, tensioned 'offside'(Dent) as ballast to keep true to center.


If you were cutting, and shit hit fan
>>what would be most likely thing to happen?
>>could you move to head it off?
>>what are your escape plans?
.
Look at fall direction and reverse as the loaded axis;
so rear is where kickback of gun is, and pretty ugly side of rocket launcher as well
stay to sides when really counts,constantly taking the patients pulse and sizing up as cutting it.
Can't let your guard down; ain't no game....