Friction Savers???

[bonner1040]

Never used one here. Looking into it since I just bought a new rope. I can't really justify spending more on the saver than on the rope , i.e. dmm thing.

Would want to set/retrieve from the ground i guess? Don't really need/want the controlled descent thing, most of my work is over grass so I would just yank it down, assuming steel is better than aluminum in that case?

I watched Carys video on setting it and pulling out with quicklink, liked that, would it work with a biner and ring?

Can i just make one with biners and some rope? Would knots work? Could i just make an endless loop with one knot and two biners to reduce hangups? The spliced products are just kind of expensive i think?


Thoughts? Recommendations? Likes? Dislikes? Rants or Raves?

If NickfromWI reads this i would take a PM with a quote on making different kinds as i would rather send him my dollars then one of the big retailers.

 

[SkwerI]

I tried using them for a couple years but went back to natural crotches simply because the lack of any friction whatsoever would allow my rope to twist and kink easier. Having a bit of friction at both ends helps keep the rope from twisting, it also reduces the load on your friction hitch and allows it to work smoother. Of course that's just my opinion, people who climb on pulley setups will disagree with me and ignore the issues. I do use a basic homemade one on pines, usually something with a steel screw link on one end and a steel locking carabiner on the other.

 

[pantheraba]

I almost always use a leather cambium saver...inexpensive, protects rope and tree, definitely reduces friction...also does not break when it falls from tree...or when I throw it down if I need to use natural crotch in top of tree.

I have 2 main climbing ropes..keep a leather friction saver in each bag.

 

[emr]

I have several FS that I use. I have a couple make of 3 strand (one adjustable and one not), one adjustable made with double braid, and the one that I use the most is a piece of webbing that I girth hitch a small ring on one end and a Revolver on the other end.

Recently I started carrying a dyneema sling with a ring girth hitched as a "poormans" multisling. I have been using the crap out of it and I really like it as a FS. I was talking it up one day to my partner and he decided to try it out yesterday. Well, Treestuff.com will be sending us another revolver, sling, and small ring pretty soon. Give it a try. If you don't like it, you can still use all of the components for other climbing applications.

 

[SouthSoundTree]

I have ring and ring, and leather tube cambium savers.

The ring and ring can have a pulley attached to it, reducing friction. If you are going up and down a lot, rope climbing, the reduced friction is nice. If you want to reduce the friction on your hitch, as Brian said, the rings are a middle ground between pulley and tube style.

The leather tubes are simple to install, can be used for climbing and rigging, and if you are mainly climbing the tree on the way up, not the rope, and just need to to protect from wear/ pitch, they're cheap, simple, bombproof. They will be a bit sticky for a few climbs until the leather gets "polished' on the inside of the tube.

I use the leather tube for SRT, as well. Just protects the mostly stationary rope from sawing action (the longer the used section of rope, the more sawing you will have occur. not a big deal though, but I have two of them, so I use them). The 3/4" is easier to get a spliced eye through. For a 1/2" tube, you'll have a harder time, but you might be able to pull a 7/16" rope with eye through with throwline, like a needle threader for sewing. I can get my Poison Hyvee with large eye wiggled through my 3/4".

 

[Old Monkey]

I seldom set one from the ground as I don't want to spend all day isolating the rope. I always have a steel ring and ring on my saddle that install while in the tree. I use it around half the time. Using one gives me more tie in options, I can put it around the main stem and over a branch I wouldn't otherwise trust because of its likelihood to break with a rope running h ard against it. Using some sort of friction save is a must in pines to keep your lines from gumming up with pitch.

I also really love the adjustable false crotch application while taking down the stem. It allows you in the case of an emergency to rappel of a pole with no branches. It also allows you to shift your weight off your spurs while the guys on the ground are managing the last piece.

My first foray into all of this was loop sling, a carabiner and a small pulley on a stick pine. There are definitely less costly ways to use this type of tool.

After several aluminum rings broke on people last year, mine are all steel.

 

[sotc]

A good set of rings will outlast many climbing lines if you don't abuse it, not really something to compare it to a rope cost. It is a tool that does many things besides saving friction. It protects the tree, allows you to set a tip in places you otherwise couldn't/shouldn't, keeps you from pitching up your rope/hitch cord etc

 

[Porkbrick]

i have a three strand adjustable ring/ring friction saver. a must have for fan palms and spars. lately ive been using one of those new flexible conduit cambium savers. i must say, ive almost forgot about the ring/ring. excellent friction reduction super easy to set and retrieve (even if you dont isolate the crotch), and for 20 bucks or so you cant beat it. plus i found out how to make them myself.

 

[bonner1040]

So if i take one of these @ 48" and $12 from treestuff.com
https://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=21&item=1860#



Girth hitch it to a small steel ring on one side $10
https://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=303&item=882

Run the sling through 4' of clear plastic tubing $4 >> silicone both ends to keep water out $0 >> And attach a pear shaped quick link $9(large sized 1/2" Bar Stock, WLL 1940 lbs., Length 5 1/2") with the wide side down
https://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=181&item=932



I should be able to set and retrieve from the ground, and have a pretty bomber setup yes? $39

I think the plastic will make it slide out and into the tree easy, cover the sewn connection, prevent the loop from getting stuck, and give me something to bury the girth hitch in (the one on the ring). It should also protect the dyneema as well which is pretty thin @ 14mm from abrasion.

Thoughts?

 

[bonner1040]

http://www.sherrilltree.com/s.nl?sc=11&category=2004&it=A&id=9973&fromsla=T&whence=

Can this be set from the ground?

Can the leather ones be set from the ground?

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Don't use the dyneema...They don't do well under a shock load situation (if you fall).
Use the nylon loop runners http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=287+26&catID=
Then get the two different size Steel Rings... works fine. And by having a few different sized loop runners, you can switch out your FS if you need longer or shorter. I find the steel rings also seem to aid in the retrieval. Hardly ever get one stuck since I switched over from aluminum
You can make an adjustable like this....

 

[Porkbrick]

that is what i use, it is easily set from the ground. this is how i do it: set throwline in my target tie-in, slip the saver on the climbline and pull the line up (the saver will slide on the line and stay at the ground), as soon as i pull the end of the line through the crotch i tie a slip knot below the saver. now, just pull the rest of the line through the crotch till the saver is over the crotch, just hold the line and pull out the slip knot and your ready to go. retrieval is the same, just tie a not in the line and pull it out. like any piece of kit to be retrieved remotely you have to make sure the crotch its set in wont hang it up when your trying to pull it out.

 

[bonner1040]

Don't use the dyneema...They don't do well under a shock load situation (if you fall).

Theoretically, doesnt the rope take the shock load? we use dyneema for anchors all the time in a rock setting, but then the rope is higher stretch?

Thats another thread though i guess...

Thanks for the pic of the home made rig, that helps alot.

 

[bonner1040]

that is what i use, it is easily set from the ground. this is how i do it...

Man i read this like 3 times envisioning a ring nd ring going over the top of the tree with the rope through it and the rope hanging on the branch with the rings around it... im like this makes no sense, so i reread it again and then went back to your first post... DUH.

Thanks for the tip, that seems really easy to use, simple and quick and best of all cheap.

Will a spliced eye fit through one of these?

Thanks Again!

 

[HolmenTree]

Since day 1 on my first climbing course about 12 yrs ago I was taught to set a 2 ring Buckingham friction saver. I still today use my 12 yr old 4' steel ring and 6' aluminum savers. I can't wear them out and have only gone through 3 Samson 13mm bluestreak ropes. I don't like change and still use a Blakes.

On that first course each student on the last day was timed setting his friction saver and rope and tying into the line all the while wearing our saddles. The best time was under 1 minute from throwing the shot bag/ line to tying the friction hitch.
And to retreive the friction saver I have only tied a square knot on the end of my climb line.
Seeing I climb to remove hardwoods 3/4 of the time I would never change this system.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

This was posted in the past... Some load testing ....

<iframe src="http://blip.tv/play/nAKCk6F5Ag.html?p=1" width="550" height="300" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://a.blip.tv/api.swf#nAKCk6F5Ag" style="display:none"></embed>

 

[treesmith]

i have a three strand adjustable ring/ring friction saver. a must have for fan palms and spars. lately ive been using one of those new flexible conduit cambium savers. i must say, ive almost forgot about the ring/ring. excellent friction reduction super easy to set and retrieve (even if you dont isolate the crotch), and for 20 bucks or so you cant beat it. plus i found out how to make them myself.

Do tell...

 

[bonner1040]

This was posted in the past... Some load testing ....

Sure, but that is talking about factor 2 falls on a completely static system. Fall factor is determined by dividing the distance of a fall into the amount of rope in a system. ie you tie into a branch pay out 20' of rope and let go, falling 20' on 20' of rope = factor 1 fall.

It is nearly impossible to generate a factor 2 fall in a friction saver setup. A factor two fall implies a distance of fall = to twice the amount of rope/cord in the system. i.e a 4' fall on a two foot sling. unless you climbed above your friction saver connected into it, with no rope, and then fell you cant do it and even then the amount of cord wrapped around the tree makes a factor 2 impossible.

Even if it was possible i would bet taking a similar factor 2 fall with an 80kg weight on 1/2 steel cable would snap it too, and it will most likely snap any arb rope or light to med rope you can name. further, if you use weights that fall close to SWF, say 1/2 SWF and drop them factor 2, whether its 2' on 1' or 20' on 10' it will break even the burliest of ropes/rigging materials such as larger bull ropes etc.

This is something that is discussed at length in rock forums / research as factor 2 falls are more possible in those situations, specifically multi pitch.

In any case a DDRT system always has far more rope out than the distance of possible falls as an inherent necessity of the system. I.E even if free climbing above the anchor/TIP 20' and you fall 40' there is still 40 feet of rope out guaranteed to allow you to travel the 20' above.

the point of the video was basically to tell you not to use dyneema and other low stretch items as anchor slings as people do when cleaning rock routes and setting for rappel and then climb above them because if you climb 2 feet up on a 2 foot sling and fall 4 feet, SNAP your dead..

 

[CurSedVoyce]

May be just me... but seeing the dyneema fail so easily in a factor one fall with a knot in it, and you are talking about placing two girth hitches on each end around rings... call me daft, but I won't hang my life on that after watching the failure and seeing the loads it failed under...
JMFOI.
You're a grown man and can make your own decisions.

 

[stig]

I was thinking the same way, Stephen.

When that video originally was posted, it made me forswear the use of dyneema slings as personal safety items.

Since we don't use more than a couple at a time, the weight difference between that and nylon/polyester is of no concern.

 

[bonner1040]

I see your concern as valid, and since i havent bought the dyneema, maybe i would buy a different sling as dyneems is primarily used because of its light weight and abrasion resistance. But it is import to realize that there was no rope in that system. If you tested any friction saver or rigging material similarly it would probably behave the same way... Im not telling anyone whats safe and what isnt because im no expert but just click this link and look:

http://bit.ly/wdTMqv

There are hundreds of climbing related articles made out of dyneems, and i own dozens myself... ive taken 30' falls onto a dyneema quickdraw, with a climbing rope in between.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Again.. No knot... Just sayin...
Dyneema is not being questioned..
it is the application and how you construct the application.

 

[bonner1040]

Ok... so ill be honest, i sold my stock in the dyneema manufacturing company yesterday, so im not selling anything to anyone.

Lets leave it at this, if I use an endless loop I wont use dyneema so you dont have to worry about me Stephen, AND I will thank you for looking out for me and only ask that if you see/hear me doing something risky in the future you let me know. Cause my woman asks me to pick her something up form the store after work almost every morning, and if i dont come home cause I am dead and she doesnt get that milk, well lets just say she would kill me!

Ultimately the only reason i said dyneema.....

Recently I started carrying a dyneema sling with a ring girth hitched as a "poormans" multisling. I have been using the crap out of it and I really like it as a FS. I was talking it up one day to my partner and he decided to try it out yesterday. Well, Treestuff.com will be sending us another revolver, sling, and small ring pretty soon. Give it a try. If you don't like it, you can still use all of the components for other climbing applications.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Yeah.. If I did not come home to Kat and the kids... I would get my ass whooped as well

 

[brendonv]

I like a three strand home made ring and ring with steel rings. Easy peasy and works when I use it!