Big dead pine has to go

[wiley_p]

After seeing those pics that Burnam posted of D. Dent and his hand on your shoulder method, being a second set of eyes, I have employed that method a couple times with Rob when we could not just "pull em out" where hangers are concerned. So far so good, nothing has fallen. Nice to have a second set of eyes though. Working in woody areas with a lot of storm or fire damage, faller best take every precaution he/she can

The reason D. Douglas puts his hand on your shoulder is cause it makes it easier for him to cuff you in the ear.

 

[Burnham]

I'll tell you folks who think you can have a lookout shout a warning at you, and then that you will be able to visually locate the falling hazard, identify the proper escape path to use, and then move yourself out of the way of that hazard...don't bet on it. All that takes time, time you probably won't have at your disposal.

If you choose to use a lookout, it's more likely to be beneficial if they are right beside you and if that overhead hazard lets loose, they physically direct your escape route...and then you have to accept their judgement and move as directed without any hesitation or second guessing. That's the only way time won't run out on you.

Because it's so hard to respond to a warning of hazard made from a distance quickly enough, and it's so hard to trust completely a push to run "that way" blind, I have always preferred to watch out for myself. I don't know if it's the best way, but it's the way I feel most comfortable with.

 

[squisher]

Which goes with my reasoning in another thread of never working with fools. Of course you'll look out for yourself but another set of eyes if their around never hurts imo. Also in my plan if that person yells or does whatever to signal you, you don't start looking for the hazard you get out of dodge and beat feet down your pre-chosen escape path. The person right beside you or with their hand on you as a lookout does not seem safer to me. What if you decide without them that you need to get the hell out of there, now you need to warn them too and not get tripped up with each other on the way out. I know it's done and done by pros from your pics B, but I just don't see myself being comfortable with it and honestly I don't see it being safer.

 

[Burnham]

I'm of the same opinion, and I agree that there is nothing wrong with having a second set of eyes...I just don't consider it safe to count on. And on at least one occasion I recall clearly, had I stayed to the pre-chosen escape path I'd have run right under a falling broken out rotten top.

There's close to no absolutes in this biz...that's for sure.

Many things I do with a saw stem from my lessons from Dent, but I don't subscribe to his coaching position. In large part, I think he adopts this method because of concern for the well-being of his students and the liability he accepts when instructing.

 

[squisher]

I hear what you're saying and agree. But honestly for me if all hell breaks loose I gotta say I'm bad for head down and running like I'm in a 100m sprint. It's served me well so far but I have felt the tingle of wondering if I'm about to be crushed from above. I'm not saying it's right to not take the time to look, but just being honest that once I see/sense that it's hit the fan I just run(drop everything and flee) and so far it's served me well. I think it may have developed with yarding as often you're working blind(like on an intermediate setting) and you just get the call/signal for a runaway log, I always ran for everything I was worth. I remember guys laughing at me for that, calling me jumpy or scared. Damn straight I get scared when scary things happen.

I must admit that a big fell like the one that's being discussed in this thread is really the most enjoyment I get out of treework. I love the adrenaline involved in it.

 

[Tucker943]

I don't ever put my head down and run when working in the woods. That's a quick way to get killed.

 

[squisher]

Yah? It ain't that quick as I did 12 years in the woods without even a single lost day injury let alone anything serious happening to me. If you already have your two escape paths to a (relatively)safespot in mind as you should when falling, than when it's time to boogy I'll get there and then look around. Usually whatever makes you decide to boogy in the first place will give you a pretty damn good idea of what direction you need to be headed, at that point I don't stop to look around. Looking up is the rule when falling but when it's time to get clear in actual woods you can't be looking up at the same time or you're just gonna fall or get tripped up, atleast out west where there's plenty of brush and slope. And no offense but obviously you've never highleaded with an intermediate, because if you can't even see what's coming your best bet is putting your head down and running to a safe spot or even to just get more clear than you were.

 

[Burnham]

On average, following your elbows and azzholes policy would save far more fallers from injury or worse, than standing around looking for a safe place to dodge to, I suspect.

 

[Al Smith]

The one thing that always concerned me was getting beaned by blowing out a big dead limb on a dead tree .That is the only reason when I did the dead oak last fall I pulled it over .About a half dozen good smacks on the wedge would have got it going but it might have got me too .Screw that 500 pounds falling 85-90 feet .

That fat limbed thing will probabley kick sideways when it hits the dirt .That one plumb limb is as fat as the average yard tree .

What the hell you really can't tell half way around the world from a picture just CYA Fiona .Be safe whatever it takes .

 

[Tucker943]

Maybe I could have worded my perspective better. I don't take off blind. I always have my escape route in order but always pay attention to whats taking place above me and behind me. You can get away with ducking and running for 100 years. It doesn't make it wise. It makes you lucky. Escape routes are a must, but debris spearing down into your escape route can mean instant death. Why a faller wouldn't pay mind to what's raining down is beyond me. Lots of guys think they are fast and won't get killed by raining debris. You think all the crosses in the woods are from rookies that Hung around the stump casually? Id bet a whole lot of them are from veterans that didn't look up.

I know of a skilled faller that was found face down, head 18" into the ground under the butt of the tree. Turned his back to his work to boogey and never saw it coming. I'm not endorsing standing at the stump and staring at the sky. Have an escape route or two. Get out of dodge, but watch behind and above you, IMO. Just because it didn't kill you yet, doesn't mean it wont.

 

[SkwerI]

Squirrels often duck their head and run blind when they sense danger.

 

[squisher]

Maybe I could have worded my perspective better. I don't take off blind. I always have my escape route in order but always pay attention to whats taking place above me and behind me. You can get away with ducking and running for 100 years. It doesn't make it wise. It makes you lucky. Escape routes are a must, but debris spearing down into your escape route can mean instant death. Why a faller wouldn't pay mind to what's raining down is beyond me. Lots of guys think they are fast and won't get killed by raining debris. You think all the crosses in the woods are from rookies that Hung around the stump casually? Is bet a while lot of them are from veterans that didn't look up.

I know of a skilled faller that was found face down, head 18" into the ground under the butt of the tree. Turned his back to his work to boogey and never saw it coming.

So that was a note he left or something? How do you know the specifics of the fatality. As in was he boogeying or was he being complacent and headed to the next tree? I'm not saying cut a tree put your head down and run, but I am saying when it hits the fan if a good place to be is far away than farther away is better. Debris raining down into your escape can be fatal no doubt, but I'll tell you one thing about standing around looking for hazards..............sooner or later you'll find one.

It's kind of funny to me that you presume to know what I think makes up the majority of fatalities in the woods. I've been through more pre-season training and safety meetings than I care to recall. I also know personally quite a number of woods related fatalities and major injuries.

I highlighted your word route because I'm assuming you meant routes because one escape route does not constitute a safe plan.

So let me put this to you, if it hits the fan and a tree is buckling over on itself say or got hung-up and the butt is coming back like a freight train, of knocked loose a snag that is coming for you, or a million other possible scenarios, while you're executing your escape down your chosen route you're gonna stop to look up and around? It's not the hazard you see that's going to get you, it's the chain reaction to the unseen hazard that gets set in motion that's going to bite.

The interweb arguing of hypothetical situations is silly, but I'll give you one thing. I am lucky.

I did say that I felt that I had a tendency to head down and get out of dodge a little to much, I didn't mean that to be interpreted as I'm an idiot who knows nothing about fatalities/injuries in the woods and just cuts a tree and runs. I've lived it, I don't really feel the need to defend myself.

 

[Tucker943]

Calm down. Your taking it to a level it. doesn't need to go to. Don't waste your time.

Yes, I meant routes. I am typing from a smart phone and auto correct is a real bitch. I usually have to go back and proof read my work.

As far as your experience level, I don't doubt for one minute your time spent at the stump. My goal was never at any point to claim you aren't skilled and haven't been through loads of training. That's where you are getting carried away. My goal was to state that I think you're duck and run is dangerous. No biggie, I didn't insult your life, career, or lived ones. I disagreed strongly with ONE practice. Better yet, that's the first time I ever disagreed with you at all. And no, I never said to stop and look back. I wouldn't stop for anything if the tree is crumbling on the stump. But I do my damnedest to get a good look up as I'm leaving. It doesn't slow you down, putting your head down won't do a damned thing whatsoever when 300 lbs rains on you from 60 up. We can disagree brother, but don't get worked up. It's not like I'm asking/demanding you do things my way. Just swapping views is all.

 

[Tucker943]

I read back over your last post again. If the shit is hitting the fan, I absolutely agree on bailing like a mofo.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Rock On with our Bad Selves!

 

[woodworkingboy]

In our sometimes jungle like conditions, it can take a wee bit of time to make an escape path for yourself. It can be on steep ground as well. I always feel that it is prudent to have a path and plan, but I see others that don't. A quarter inch vine that wouldn't release you, could easily be the cause of loss of life. It would be an unfortunate obit.

 

[squisher]

Calm down. Your taking it to a level it. doesn't need to go to. Don't waste your time.

I'm just grumpy as hell today because I got snowed out and now I'm working the weekend to stay on schedule. I'll admit I get my back up when people start talking about fatalities and what not in the woods like it's something that could be avoided. I'm telling ya if the woods wants ya you're done. Which is why I agreed with you I am lucky, I don't think it's any greater skill or knowledge that kept me safe in the woods.

If we ever meet up I'll buy you a beer or three and we could discuss it at length. You've always been very cool on-line, I didn't me to come across like an ass.........yet sometimes I still do.

 

[woodworkingboy]

I wonder if there is anyone that has worked in the woods that can't say that they were saved by luck in a situation. I would hope so, but I have to thank luck. Slipped and fell and a tree was comin'.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

The reason D. Douglas puts his hand on your shoulder is cause it makes it easier for him to cuff you in the ear.

Yeah, he'd probably beat me silly

 

[Tucker943]

I'm just grumpy as hell today because I got snowed out and now I'm working the weekend to stay on schedule. I'll admit I get my back up when people start talking about fatalities and what not in the woods like it's something that could be avoided. I'm telling ya if the woods wants ya you're done. Which is why I agreed with you I am lucky, I don't think it's any greater skill or knowledge that kept me safe in the woods.

If we ever meet up I'll buy you a beer or three and we could discuss it at length. You've always been very cool on-line, I didn't me to come across like an ass.........yet sometimes I still do.

You and I cool as far as I'm concerned. My words can come off cocky and arrogant sometimes and have a way of putting people on edge when I didn't mean to. Were cool bro.

 

[Burnham]

You both are a pain in the tail...


Better watch out, Butch will throw the group hug pic on us.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Ya'll know you love it!

 

[Tucker943]

Come on B. You know you love me. I breathe youth into these threads! Joie de vie!

 

[stig]

I wonder if there is anyone that has worked in the woods that can't say that they were saved by luck in a situation. I would hope so, but I have to thank luck. Slipped and fell and a tree was comin'.

There may be, but I haven't met said person so far.
Sometimes it is the smallest things that saves us.

As for the whole "run or look" discussion, I've found something that works.
Get a partner like Richard!

He is a veritable magneto for things coming down from above.

When we went climbing with Jerry and he showed us how to shoot REAL high with the bigshot, we har the fishing line greak and the 300 gr. lead sinker just go into space.
Then we heard this "Plop" sound, and it was buried in the ground about 15" in front of Richard.

Same thing happened when we climbed Sequoias last year.

Last summer we were logging old beech trees and he had just sat down to gas his saw up, reached out for the cannister and a huge branch fell out of the sky, blowing the cannister to hell.

And so on and on and on.................................................!

Luck has a lot to do with it, I think.

Last week he got hit by a widowmaker and had to go buy a new helmet.

He is not an unsafe faller, God just has decided to use him for target practice.

So I just stay near him, and I'm safe.

 

[Burnham]

I know there've been some times when luck was on my side; no matter how much I'd like to say I could claim responsibiity, a few times it's been pure blind good fortune that has sent me home unharmed.