Tethered leaner - improvement?

[davidwyby]

Skip to 5:20…or watch the whole shenanigans.

I was afraid to tighten the rope more, for fear of tearing the hinge.

Woulda coulda should moved the anchor point to the rear.

I wonder if I shouldn’t have done two hinges 90° to each other. One to stand the tree up, and one to fell it.

Or one angled 45° between them?
🤔

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Desired out come it looks like.
I would invest into a continuous puller and a throw line. If you don't already have one or more of each.

 

[davidwyby]

Desired out come it looks like.
I would invest into a continuous puller and a throw line. If you don't already have one or more of each.

Bashed up the green trees more than I wanted.

 

[Burnham]

It's really hard to manipulate where a tree wants to naturally go when all you have for hinge wood is dead dry, or rotten. You were right to be cautious with the level of tension on the restraint line. Placing that line higher up in the tree might have been better.

Might have been an ideal situation for a truck mounted winch, with a second crew to hit the intake switch as the tree committed.

Hindsight is a bitch, sometimes. But you did alright, be happy.

 

[stig]

What Burnham said.

 

[Burnham]

@davidwyby, here's another thought on technique for using side lean restraint lines.

If the anchor point is at exactly 90 degrees to the gunned lay, the line stays tensioned the same throughout the fall. If it's ahead of that point it will slacken, and if it's behind that point it will increase in tension.

So if you want to get some increase or decrease in that tension as the tree commits, you could have shifted the anchor point you set to accomplish that.

Just kanoodling here.

Edit: I see your coulda shoulda in your OP. We are thinking the same.

 

[davidwyby]

Yeah the anchor tree had another fork to the rear. Would have pulled the tree towards me as it went. Almost switched it, but I also thought it might make it harder to get the tree to commit.

 

[SeanKroll]

Also, if you wrap a tree as the anchor point for a 90⁰ retainer, rather than using a POW-type, the tension goes slightly up or down as the falling tree slightly wraps or unwraps the tree, particularly if the anchor tree is large.

 

[Eric H-L]

Yeah the anchor tree had another fork to the rear. Would have pulled the tree towards me as it went. Almost switched it, but I also thought it might make it harder to get the tree to commit.

If you had moved it to the rear, could it have swung the tree too far toward the tethered side…or was there plenty of room on that side?

 

[davidwyby]

If you had moved it to the rear, could it have swung the tree too far toward the tethered side…or was there plenty of room on that side?

More room, just one limb, not a whole tree.

 

[stikine]

On that second view of the fall of the first tree it seems like the limbs really got caught up in the leave tree. Just curious, did you calculate the amount of side lean (to the right) first and then compensate your aiming point to the left? I couldn't quite tell from the camera angles.

 

[davidwyby]

Also, if you wrap a tree as the anchor point for a 90⁰ retainer, rather than using a POW-type, the tension goes slightly up or down as the falling tree slightly wraps or unwraps the tree, particularly if the anchor tree is large.

Would have been interesting to leave it attached to the front fork and wrap around the rear. I think it would have yanked it over into the hole away from the leave tree.

 

[davidwyby]

On that second view of the fall of the first tree it seems like the limbs really got caught up in the leave tree. Just curious, did you calculate the amount of side lean (to the right) first and then compensate your aiming point to the left? I couldn't quite tell from the camera angles.

No, it went with the gun. Well, viewed from the lay perspective you are referring to, it went a little left of gun, bad rope anchor position I think. Your comment made me realize something…a lot of the issue is that i underestimated how much those limbs would interfere on the tree’s arc down. Also, those limbs up high are less desirable to hit than the low hangers on the other side. I should have gunned it it more to the left viewed from the felling position, and moved the anchor to the rear as well. It would have brushed or maybe broken the low hangers but that would have been OK. OTOH, it was probably a good thing it went as it did, because if it had gone that way, it would have hit the second tree and agitated the bees, precluding me from felling the second tree. 🤙🏻

I’m not sure how much compensating for lean alone would help on a tree that is as brittle as a pretzel stick…it seemed to me it all depended on the rope. In my experience, the hinge would break very early and then the tree would simply go with gravity.

None of it matters in this case, all for learning for when it does, and that goal was accomplished thanks to the experience and y’all’s input.

 

[davidwyby]

I had actually intended to tilt my face and back cuts high to the anchor side in hope of reducing the possibility of the rope pulling the hinge off sideways.

That brings another thought to mind…lower on the anchor and higher on the felled tree as Burnham said would make the rope “shorter” and pull more as the tree fell I think…as well and putting more down than lateral force on the hinge.

 

[stikine]

On a morphodite tree like that you need to assess the weighted side lean ie. where is the weighted mass relative to my objective (the lay) and project how much side lean you need to compensate for. So if that hypocritical number is say; I have 3 feet of side lean to the right I will need to aim the tree 3 feet to the left of the objective to hit my lay.

 

[Marc-Antoine]

Beside the angle of the guy line relative to the aim, you need to take in count the high of the anchor point vs the hinge, especially if the anchor tree is close to the felled one. Ideally, they should be about the same level to get a straight fall (with the guy at 90° from the aim). If the anchor is lower than the hinge, the guy line appears too long and can't hold the tree to the lay, it falls short. if the anchor is too high, the guy line is shorter and will yank the tree past the aim.
The stretch of the line is a bitch for this application. The pretension is critical and very touchy. I went in trouble more than a couple times by the rope acting like a sandow when the load on it increases during the cut, while I thought that my tension was well adjusted..

 

[gf beranek]

Good points Marc-Antoine.

A lot can be said about the "angle of the holding line"

In a typical scenario, providing a reliable anchor point to set a guy line, to hold and guide a tree to a lay, there are four angles in the guy one must weigh.

How high is the line set in the tree? With this, just follow the same rules you would when pulling a tree. Generally speaking the higher the better. But for a holding a tree you can often get by with a bit less.

"Height or elevation of the anchor point in relation to the hinge." Unlike level ground, on steep ground the anchor point is often uphill of the tree being felled. A significant elevation difference between the anchor point and hinge. Depending on the other angles this can work for you or against you.

"Fore or Aft" angle of the anchor point in relation to the hinge." Set forward of the hinge a foot or two the anchor point can lead a tree to the lay. With the anchor point aft of the hinge can null or stall a tree to negative effect. In which case you would have to wedge, jack or set a line to move the tree forward to the lay.

"Distance" of the anchor point to the hinge. Is the anchor point close to or far away from the tree? Close or far think of the path the line because it follows the tree. The line can cross objects between the anchor point and tree. On the good side an anchor set afar is generally under less strain to hold and guide a leaner. Closer, steeper angles you're going to need a stronger anchor point and rigging to manage the same.

4 angles to weigh, be either optimum or minimum. All 4 have a relative effect on each other. 3 of which may be optimum, but if 1 isn't you're pushing the odds

Depending on the tree, its condition, and any targets to work around, there are a million possible ways something could go wrong.

But if you're a treeman, and you can wrap your head around those 4 angles you'll be way ahead of the odds knowing how to manage holding and swinging trees.

 

[davidwyby]

Seems like it would be a good idea to connect to the anchor tree first and then swing the rope around to see where the final lay that it reaches is.

 

[davidwyby]

I like cable…no stretch.

 

[stig]

Not much in Dyneema, either.
Way easier to drag up in trees.