Hard leaning Alder felling

I'd like to do an apprentice type deal, but my schedule doesn't really fit. 1. Doing this part time doesn't really match up with an educational / apprenticeship setup. 2. A few calls to local services got no call back or "we're not hiring".
That's why I spend so much time on here.
That ash I cut had a slight side lean (I removed several branches to minimize the significant side lean it had), and significant head lean. It didn't seem like the hinge held up the trunk's movement at all, as the backcuts overlapped - down she went. I had read that ash had a tendency to barber chair, so I made sure I bored the hinge before proceeding with the back cuts. Upon stump inspection, I left the tension side a bit thinner than the compression side - clearly the opposite of what I should have done, but both were thick enough to not matter in the end. All that ends well, right?
I am interested in the factors that would lead the cutter to increase or reduce the hinge thickness from the 10% standard. Ex. does a thicker hinge on a dead tree hold better or snap sooner? It seems that tree species makes a huge difference in itself, hence my google searches before cutting anything I'm concerned about.
I don't trust my abilities enough on anything questionable with sensitive target nearby, so anything iffy gets a pull line or a guy line. More knowledge and experience would probably allow me the wedge option, which would be way quicker.
 
murphy4trees said:
That is a lot more useful info than just 10%... Apparently we have to educate ourselves about such matters to get it right!!!
Click to expand...
Not going to answer the other questions? 10% never stood alone, it was 5-10%, maybe you missed that?
 
You're on the right track, Chris.

I was the same way about tree climbing and rigging. I came with the rock climbing/ basic rescue rigging background. Read, ask, and try. Read, ask and try stuff.




A dead hinge will be less flexible. The full blockout/ gap face helps to make a tall hinge, which makes the hinge more flexible, and hold longer before breaking. Stig's German cut is to a similar, but lesser extent, and you don't have to/ get to bust the block out along the grain. Tradeoffs in techniques that help a hinge be more flexible and work longer.

A Whizzy lets the tension side hinge be more flexible to counteract side lean wanting to break the hinge earlier in the fall. Seems like an easier way than a full gap face if you're gutting the hinge. Different tricks in the bags. A lot of times, the basics are good enough when performed properly.

Get the Fundementals if you don't have it.

If you can find an opportunity to go fall stuff in the woods, like you know someone who cuts firewood, go bang some over.

If not, when not in a critical situation do some wedging. Wedge spars over whenever they're short enough. Experiment with hinge placement and gutting.
 
sotc said:
Not going to answer the other questions? 10% never stood alone, it was 5-10%, maybe you missed that?
Click to expand...

That wasn't directed at you... the 10% is what we're taught as an industry standard...

5-10% isn't much better until you ad this to it

Quote Originally Posted by sotc
Your 3.5" is the heavy side. I typically know I can safely saw up a tree to the 10% range before much is going to happen. Pretty straight, balanced trees. I also find the 5 percent range to be the end thickness when the tree commits. If it hasn't committed by 5 percent I rarely cut more till I know I've got it in lead.

In which case it's a lot better....

Without giving it a lot of thought here's a ballpark in direct inches..

trees up to 12" diameter: 1"-1.5" hinge width... if you need more control out of the hinge ad an inch (2"-2.5") and make the hinge across the widest part of the cut (center of the tree)


trees from 13"-30" diameter: 2"-2.5" hinge width... if you need more control out of the hinge ad an inch (3"-3.5") and make the hinge across the widest part of the cut (center of the tree)


trees from 31"-50" diameter: 2.5"-3.5" hinge width... if you need more control out of the hinge and you have the power to get the tree to move add an 1"-2", (3.5"-5.5")


trees over 50" you shouldn't be cutting a monster down if you need to look at this list

Note: hinge width is going to be partially determined by how you are getting the tree to commit to the lay. If you are using wedges or pulling by hand, you'll need to work a lot harder to get the tree down with the wider portions of the given range. I prefer to use equipment and high pull lines which offer a lot power and thus allows for a much easier time of it when using wider hinges. In general I believe that wider hinges offer more control, however on back leaners it is often necessary to thin the hinge up significantly to allow the pulling force of the line to fight the back lean more than the hinge. When pulling straight back, 180º to the lean, hinges may need to go to as little as half the width prescribed above. If there is side lean and back lean, you need to be careful when thinning a hinge down. The use of right angle retainer lines may be needed to keep a thin hinge from failing.
 
Sometimes we jack, wedge AND pull on a tree. More than one way to skin a cat I suppose. You do what works for you and I'll do what works for me, and as Barney says, we'll be a big happy family...
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As a note, moving the hinge to the rear reduces wedge leverage on the tree.

It exerts more upward force on the hinge, possibly leading to tearing the hinge.

I'll move the hinge back, and still wedge easier to lift trees, while being aware of this. A hard to tip tree, or back-leaning tree will more likely get a more typical hinge placement.



Willie, are you rocking Silvey jacks?
 
That's a featherlite in the picture. I have bottle jacks with more stroke but I like having the pressure gauge. I can always shim if necessary.
 
Whizzy = tapered block face? Cuts meet on one side of the hinge and gap on the other?

I do have Fundamentals, I'm thinking about ordering Ger's video series.

I have read about the wedge force vs hinge location. As soon as I read it my memory of physics classes said "well duh". I hadn't thought of it BEFORE that though, so maybe not quite so "duh".

I do have a relative in the Poconos that fells trees, neither him nor his boss climb, I might have to pursue spending a few days with them. I think they have a logging type operation. Last I heard they had a huge clearing/logging/firewood job ready to go (bought a brand new firewood processor for it) and got stalled by a neighbor at the last minute, permits and such. I'll see if I can go flop some woods trees over with them.
 
Gerry's vids are one of a kind classics, gotta have em.
 
woodslinger said:
I
I am interested in the factors that would lead the cutter to increase or reduce the hinge thickness from the 10% standard. Ex. does a thicker hinge on a dead tree hold better or snap sooner? It seems that tree species makes a huge difference in itself, hence my google searches before cutting anything I'm concerned about.
I don't trust my abilities enough on anything questionable with sensitive target nearby, so anything iffy gets a pull line or a guy line. More knowledge and experience would probably allow me the wedge option, which would be way quicker.
Click to expand...

That's a good question... more later... I'd be careful with any tree near a valuable obstacle.. that's not the time to learn how to use wedges...
 
I don't know about that. I wouldn't suggest banging over a back-leaner that hangs over the house.

The wedge, just like a pull line, gets the tree to commit to the hinge. The hinge does the direction. If you can't figure out how to cut a solid hinge, don't fell trees/ spars in striking distance of the obstacle.

Wedges don't mean to not use a pull rope. You should back-up a pull rope with wedges. Standard, if often ignored procedure.

Before you say it... The speed of a skidsteer means that you can't keep up with a pull rope with wedges. They don't have to be actively lifting to back up a rope when pulling by hand.

A pull rope installed means you don't have a critical do-or-die situation.

Relying on a speedy skid steer, elastic rope and thick hinge means not learning the full potential of the hinge. Its a great tool in some situations, but learning to use a hinge and wedges means being able to do without.

My market allows my sub-3' skid steer into a lot of places, but not up/ down stairs. I could redirect the snot out of hundreds of feet of pull line to get to a machine, but often I'd rather just take a few wedges and something to pound with 7-8 pounds of stuff ready in 30 seconds , rather than my skidsteer. I put stuff into the woods, or they clean up sometimes, so I don't need the loader sometimes, even with big trees.

Spars need a lot less hinge. Gutting the middle, leaving the steering corners helps this. If its a smaller tree where you might run out of wedge space, gutting the heartwood from the front, sticking out the back, allows the face-cut horizontal to be in the same plane as the back-cut. You can sneak the tip of the wedge into the space you cutted from the hinge. Careful not to start putting too much pressure on the hinge in an upward way, though, by sinking them too deep. This is where a broken off wedge (shorter from the pounding surface toward the area that used to be the tip) can get you lift.

A wedging thread would be worth while, maybe. Never seen one. Something that many know how to do, and many don't.

P.S.

Don't put yourself in a do-or-die situation anytime you are learning.
 
I think wedges are extremely important in backing up pull lines on heavy back leaners...
I've seen them move a tree when the pull lines were real close to maxed out. I know there are a lot of trees I cut that could be simply wedged over without needing to set a pull line... I just feel more comfortable with one in. that said I rely much more on the power of the skid steer rather than the speed. Power allows the hinge to be thicker and those thicker hinges hold MUCH BETTER.. talked to some GOL instructor that didn't think so, but he's not used to pulling with equipment.. I;ve seen some fat hinges hold some nasty side leaners laeving splinters in the broken holding wood as thick as my wrist and a foot or two long
 
woodworkingboy said:
Murph, just curious, how many tons of pull do you figure that you get from your skid steer?
Click to expand...

I just got the dyno out on one job recently, primarily to check rigging forces.. I've been meaning to test it for pulling power. Since it has turf tracks it will slip on grass pretty early, guessing somewhere 2500-4000 lbs on grass and probably 5-6000 on blacktop. Won't take much to check for sure, just have to get around to it. I think that would be good info to have ...

on heavy back leaners I go with multiple trucks and multiple lines.... We did one in 2014 where we pretensioned a bull line with the 30,000 lb bucket truck, put on the air brake, then used it as an anchor to set a pulley and pulled with the 26,000 lb chip truck...
 
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