Butt tying or....?

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  • #76
I've been kind of picturing that. I'm having a hard time locating some rope or other material that will assuredly withstand a potential breaking load, without running into some major expense. Since I have a bull rope rated to slightly over six tons, so how best to try and multiply that with wraps and not have a weak link still going on? I swung by the temple this morning when heading to my shop, wanted to check out something that I was thinking about. That stem really is a lot of tree, and unless it twists or something when on the way down, maybe the top rolling off other trees, it is definitely going to land with the curve down and likely take a big jump.
 
just a thought... could you leave the top on, tie off the base in whatever manner seems best, and face it up so that the top brushes the trees to one side or the other with the intention of causing the stem to roll and land with the sweep flat on the ground? could even nip the hinge on one side to help it roll. lots of variables there, but if you are going to go with falling it as opposed to the crane, maybe this would help minimize bounce and shock loading on the butt tie. just throwing an idea out there...
 
I'm thinking a combination of many of the suggestions mentioned here when all used together will minimize the bounce. A large brush pile at the impact spot, tying off the butt, rolling it off the other trees to help land it flat, etc. I think Jay will pull it off with style. 8)
 
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  • #79
Thanks for the vote of confidence. With the top left on, it is going to make contact with some other trees, but with the two ton puller hooked up high, I don't really see the problem with that like I did initially. If it gets hung up, it should be able to be pulled off easily enough in theory, presumably free of the stump by then. It could reduce some of the momentum, and also cause some twist to get the tree falling in a more desirable position. There isn't a lot of space between the rows of trees to hit the lay, the pulling location is a given and so would be the gun of the face. Not much ability to get creative with what is happening there. I'm up for leaving the top on and just going for it, the limbs could well absorb some of the crash. We'll have some brush around for a cushion, from thinning the other trees a bit. Have to say though, the stone appears very vulnerable, no matter how I look at it. Anyway, the crane operator said I could run it through his insurance company, so technically it would be his job. I'll have to be mindful of his preferences as well, though I will have put more study into it with the help from you guys. This tree does seem to present a set of circumstances that I have never encountered before. A fifty ton crane would make it all mute.
 
The only real problem in this job is the stone arch. Have you investigated the possibility of removing it until the work is done?

Dave
 
a rolling snipe (see FGTW) would help get it to roll... as far as it hanging up on the way down.. that's going to be a major issue if you are wanting to throw it forward off the stump.. the only way to do that is to break the hinge, separation, while the tree is still in forward motion. If it hangs up, that is going to stop the forward motion, and then when you break it free with the pull line, the movement will be going almost entirely down.. you can prune branches out of the falling path, enough to ensure that they don't hold up the fall. Separation has to be fairly early, thus the narrow humboldt, with enough stump shot to hold it on the stump if it hangs up for a second.. When I need early separation and have concerns about a top kicking back at me, I use a narrow humboldt with the the top face cut on a downward angle, and the bottom face cut on a even steeper downward angle...
 
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  • #82
Yes, I get the idea of wanting the tree to be moving forward as much as possible when it leaves the stump, a derivative of how the cuts are made and what is happening to possibly encumber the fall. That's the thing partly with this job, how you win in one way is how you lose in another. There is what I consider an ideal anchoring location off to the side and slightly forward of the stump, allowing the tree to move ahead and not in the direction of the stone, if the anchor holds.

Exactly, Dave, i was standing there and surmising what would be involved to temporarily move the arch. It would entail first removing the horizontal member that goes all the way through the verticals. With the trees in the way now, it is conceivable that you could tip the whole thing and slide it out, then completely dig out the posts. Looks major iffy though, and add appreciably to the time and costs. As mentioned, that stone is pretty soft, quite coarse grained in appearance. People like it for it's nice tan color, and being a local commodity, but I have often heard comment on how lacking in strength it is. The priest had the foresight to already move the carved rock that was standing in front of the tree off the back, he has a truck with a unic boom himself, must have gotten some help from a congregation member. When I was over there one day I saw him and somebody pointing at it and talking. I don't know, they might have had it in mind to move that irregardless of the tree.
 
I've felled trees and stubs with the crane attached to the top, normal felling cuts, still attached to the hinge...had them lowered gently to the ground. I relied on the experience of the crane operator to determine the maximum size he was comfortable with based on where he could position the crane, he'd done many of the species (Norfolk pine) and so had an intrinsic knowledge of the weight for the pieces.
Two were stubs about 30' tall by 40" dia, and one was a whole tree, maybe 50' by 20", but not very bulky.
Facinating discussion!
 
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  • #84
Fiona, I called up an old friend of mine, a retired crane operator, and described the situation with questions pertaining to the capacity of a 25 ton. "Have to see it". I can't get no relief. :lol:
 
Hey, you're there, I'm not, not to mention your oodles more experience!
 
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  • #86
Don't misunderstand, Fiona, i much appreciate your input. Just saying that the suggestions are gratefully received and I think and try to mentally apply about each and every one, but still questions remain for me at this point. :) A mistake still looms big, that's all.
 
I was thinking about your not having a strong enough rope/chain to trust holding it when butt-tying.

How about using 2 ropes, one tied tighter that the other.

That way the tightest rope can break, absorbing most of the force, and the looser one can hold the stem in place.
 
Use them big enough and two would probably do it.

I was thinking about those safety lanyards for use in bucket trucks.
The ones that have a long section of sorta "peel-off" stuff, to slow your fall, so the impct wont hurt you.

Am I totally out in the weird zone here?

This is not my field of expertice, I'm just a dumb logger!
 
I dunno about the screamer idea, but I think the multiple ties makes good sense. I wasn't poo-pooing that idea at all.
 
Well let's face it most of us are half way around the world from this thing .All perhaps with good ideas but Jay is the only one who can see the thing up close and personal .

If it wasn't for that stone arch it would be a cake walk .Too bad they can't just move the arch for a little bit then put it back .
 
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  • #94
Yes, I was wondering if Jerry has ever had to tie the butt of those big trees he has fallen?

Some of the large boats that were washed inland during the tsunami, some Very large boats, I see that when lifting them up with a crane(s) they are often using some super strong appearing slings, I would guess at least 15-20 ton capacity. Inspired, I checked out the price for the real strong ones. :O Ten times the budget to remove that tree and I might break even. Slowly I've been collecting things, however, from people I know. The metal fabricator down the road loaned me an 18mm wire rope choker, and a pretty good length of 13 mm wire yesterday.
 
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  • #97
"No more helping me in your shop anymore, or cutting trees for my son-in-law", some possibilities. I wouldn't want to break his goods, but that isn't my biggest concern.
 
I have butt tied trees before. Though mainly to keep the butt for rolling somewhere I didn't want it to. It's better, I found out, to tie off to another tree, if you can. Rather than to the stump. That way it is possible to pretension the line. And by it the line is subject to a lot less shock.

Out in the woods I've choked the butts of trees and used the Cat to hold them from taking off down hill hill. In either case tying to the stump or holding with a Cat you need enough slack in the rigging to allow the fell to happen. But with the Cat you can draw with the winch to catch the tree. Which can help eliminate a lot of the shock too.

Once I snapped a 3/8 chain rigging to the stump. I recall the chain whipping around the stump so frigging fast it would have broke your legs if you were anywhere close enough to get hit by it. Then once broke a 1/2 chain too. That time using it to hold a double together. there the chain did its job the way it was intended to, but, of course, on impact is when it broke. Before it did though the links stretched so much you could hold about 6 feet of that chain out like it was a rod. No more bendy after that. It did its job.

Yeah on butt tying trees you got to go heavy heavy duty and expect rigging to break in spite. If failure is not an option then go to plan B.

Can't you top that puppy out, Jay, and then section out the rest?
 
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  • #99
Thanks for the perspective, Jerry,

Topping the tree is an option, and when the crane operator was out to have a look, we decided to do that to help ensure it not getting hung up if falling it and to reduce the weight. I do like the idea of leaving it on to help possibly soften the crash, as has been suggested, and with a pull line and beefy puller, and seeing what it might brush up against, After some consideration, I don't think getting hung up to the point of having to recut the bottom is much of a concern. Besides the risk, there is the quality of the log that would be compromised. The biggest "yes sir" complication is that the priest wants the log in it's length entirely below the top, and my guess is that the weight is too much for a pick, even for the operator that is a fine one. He may have a different view. I will say that I have never seen a tree done in one shot of this size with the 25 ton. The priest might be convinced to change his mind.

I would follow your heed and not try to attach to the stump, there are other trees to anchor to. Some shock loading seems inevitable.

One good consequence about this job is that I have been reading up a lot on wire rope. Our big hardware extravaganza store pulled out a whole mess of old chokers and is offering them for 30% off, everything from fifteen millimeters to 25 mm, and three to five meters in length. All with spliced loop ends and a swaging ferrule as well. You usually don't see them with both. I might pick one up and have been checking out the strength options and learning about what I am looking at there with the chokers. 25mm is strong stuff, but quite heavy and stiff for sure when handling it. One thing that appears quite clear from pursuing the different manufacturer's websites and information, is that when it comes to shock loading, all bets are off regarding breaking strength. The breaking strengths they give are under specific ideal testing conditions, the same as rope I believe, a slow increasing in amount pull until there is a break. They don't seem to want to venture a guess as to what shock loading is going to do to breaking strength, basically predict undesirable consequences and just advise you not to do it. I also find a fair amount of divergence when it comes to wire rope breaking strength, depending on manufacturers, but using the same type materials and construction for a specific type rope. It gets a bit confusing in that regard. Like with arborist ropes, the recommended working load limits are well under the breaking strengths. I know that most guys doing removals seem to be more into ropes than cable, and I picked up a Masdam myself recently, but our endless cable pullers have been a mainstay when doing removals here, a superb tool in my opinion, so cable is something that has always interested me, but I hadn't looked into it much before, other than using it with some knowledge of capacities. Another thing I learned is that chain is pretty darn weak, until you get into the bigger sizes. It's all a pretty deep subject. I think we will be getting to that tree in about ten days.
 
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