Butt tying or....?

woodworkingboy

woodworkingboy

TreeHouser
Joined
Aug 16, 2008
Messages
31,007
Location
Nippon
Looking at this upcoming job....

I have the option to crane the tree out if I want, but I would prefer to fall it where it stands. Some back lean that I will overcome with a two ton endless line puller, my major thought is the temple's stone entrance that stands close to the tree. I am concerned about the tree possibly kicking back into it when it falls. Damage would be a serious consequence to the hundreds of years old stone work. Aside from leaving stump shot, I have no experience at immobilizing a butt after the tree strikes the ground. As the vid shows, there are other trees to anchor to, both behind the tree to be removed, and also slightly forward and to the opposite side of the stone arch. If there are any thoughts or suggestions, they are much appreciated. I did a little tour of the area, Bodean inspired :), before getting to the tree, hope that you like it. Sorry about the somewhat shaky camera operation.

The tree to be removed is the one closest to the entrance stone pillar.

Thank you.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/bB0M8CPDV3M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
What, it's still standing? Just do like you said you were gonna do, and be sure to tie those trunks together to keep the butt from moving much.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
Thanks, Terri!

As simple as that, tie or chain it to the one behind.... A tree falls ok when directly chained to another? I've tied off many trees for crane pics, but never when falling. Having a hard time visualizing. Maybe making too much of it. If the stone was damaged, I'd be in trouble, ha!
 
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  • #5
With MB's advice, I'm thinking that you need just the right amount of slack in the tie off...? The vid has sound, but it is low volume.
 
I agree with MB just butt tie it,i don't know if i would leave any slack in it though. You can always put a rope through the crotch of one of the other trees and tip tie the entire tree,and cut it at the base, then cut pieces out of it as the tree is lowered.
 
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  • #8
A pretty valuable tree, it's max length is preferred to begin with. The priest wants it. Probably a lot older than it might appear to be. Old growth Pine, I think you could call it in this area. I know the temple is 400 hundred years old.
 
Oh ok,didn't know about value man,if in doubt maybe just go up and limb and top it, then fell logs out of it? I'm just used to residential work.
 
Thanks for the tour, Jay. Very beautiful.

I think your plan to drop it sounds solid. With the tree having been dead for a year I would expect the top to be getting brittle enough to not cause much resistance when it strikes the other trees. As long as the initial contact is far enough away that the tree is committed and that the top or major limbs cannot strike the entrance stone work if they were to bust in a large piece or section.

The interaction of forces are too complex to really analyze from a video. If you can visualize all the what ifs and compensate for them, then go ahead and drop it.

The problem with craning out dead trees is the degree of brittleness can be hard to quantify until the first pick. And if that first pick is directly over the structure you are trying to save....

Dave
 
Nice tour Jay, Thanks!

DMc covered a lot of what I was thinking.

The only thing I can add is a few times on similar fells I have used a truck or skidder to pull at a 45deg forward to help capture the stump shot.
Not really using it to pull it over, but as the tree goes to the lay, drive forward keeping the strap tight or winch in on the skidder doing the same thing. Then when the tree hits the lay it has a much harder time going back and to the opposite side of the pull.
But that does require and operator you trust to not pull the tree sideways off the stump.
 
Beautiful video tour, Jay ... thank you very much! I had no problems with the sound - seemed fine. Your plan sounds good, especially with Butch's and Dave's endorsement. However, FWIW, I'd worry about that dead top breaking out and coming back at the stone entrance structure -- wouldn't take much to make for a really bad day. You're a brave man! I hope you'll post some pix of the work. Best of luck.
 
I had similar thoughts as Jack...consider broken top parts, both from the tree felled and from the rest bounding the lane, coming back.

That looks like one of those 95% sure of the outcome fells...but with extremely negative consequences if one ore more of the 5% unknowables come to pass.
 
Just remember! It's gonna be in a bind when everything's over - make sure you're tied your rope or rigged your chain with that in mind. You may even have to cut the rope, so use a disposable one.
 
No way would I ask any rope to hold that butt. Cable isn't bullet-proof, either. Big azz chain would be a good choice. That's very likely going to be a heavy dynamic hit...remember the strong possibility of bounce, as that stem is not straight.
 
Synthetic rope, such as nylon or polyester, is much better at energy absorption than steel cable or chain.
 
I'm with Burnam and Jack on this one. You will have bounce and tying it off will help but....... Falling that tree through canopy like that, you could lose the top and have it do damage, breakage from the other trees, tree could roll a tad from the canopy, snag in the canopy and throw off your lay. From your camera's perspective, and if I could rig it or use a crane, I would at least reduce the tree to below the canopy prior to a fell. And if you are already craning it, just remove the rest of the stem. Insurance can fix the roof or corner of a house or shed, but replace stone work that is semi sacred at a temple? I don't think it worth the risk. If I was right there with you, I could feel different or more confident seeing it first hand. I would probably go with a rigging or crane option myself just for a Comfort of control margin. Some good trees either side to rig from or tie off of.... Crane preferred. JMO
Now about that video.. That place is awesome.... I envy you being able to work around all that history and sacred places.
It was really cool to have that much of a removed feeling not far from what seemed to be a well traveled road. I would love to see those gardens in the spring or fall... :)
Hell, I would love to kneel and get to pray with a priest :)
 
I think the bigger potential issue is that tree not having enough room to get moving. real good chance of hanging it up, or having it roll and go out of lead.
 
Very good video! Thanks for the tour Jay.

I've never felled a large tree nor been close to one when it hit the ground, but I have to ask... surely it will "shake" the ground a little when it hits. Will the stonework hold up to the mild earthquake the tree causes?
 
SoonerFan said:
Very good video! Thanks for the tour Jay.

I've never felled a large tree nor been close to one when it hit the ground, but I have to ask... surely it will "shake" the ground a little when it hits. Will the stonework hold up to the mild earthquake the tree causes?
Click to expand...

IT'S JAPAN! {Nippon} There's been 11+ quakes in the past week ... check it out: Japan Quake Map

Those stones have probably gotten used to being shook pretty good.
 
lumberjack said:
Synthetic rope, such as nylon or polyester, is much better at energy absorption than steel cable or chain.
Click to expand...

True if you have some length in play...but in this case there will be next to none.

Sure, there are ropes out there big and bad enough to do the job...but none of us have one, I'd wager.
 
Burnham said:
Sure, there are ropes out there big and bad enough to do the job...but none of us have one, I'd wager.
Click to expand...

Anyone of us close to a fishing fleet would be able to pick some up.
They use Dyneema in the most amazing thicknesses!!
Like loose woven in the thickness of an forearm. ( mine, not yours;))

I buy my dyneema pull lines from a company supplying fishermen. Way cheaper than getting it from forestry suppliers.
 
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