Another training/recert with D. Douglas Dent

[Burnham]

Cool pics Burnham. What's the Mr.Dent word on undercut depth? Most of those look deeper than what I'd expect.

Dent considers 1/3 of the tree diameter to be the usual face cut depth, and that's what he teaches as correct for felling live, green trees with normal crowns. He advises to make the face somewhat deeper, even up to 1/2 diameter when you have needs that dictate modifying the standard...those would include snags, such as these were, as they have much reduced weight up high and are easier to move to the face when you shift the COB to the rear a bit.

As a matter of curiosity can a student bypass a cut or some other faux pas in making the face and still salvage their grade/certification by taking the time to trim it out/square things up/ eliminate a dutchman etc? I ask because I wind up dressing a LOT of my faces.

Doug does not require you to form a perfect face with only three cuts, Justin. What is absolutely necessary is to take the time to shape them correctly. Dressing up the initial attempt is common, and that's another reason some faces may end up deeper than 1/3 .

If a student fricks around much, Dent will definitely be assigning additional falls to that student, but having to redo a face is not a death sentence...luckily for me.

 

[Burnham]

Burnham, would you advise that a low to even back cut, enhances the tree falling faster to drive through another trees limbs, or would it tend to defeat the purpose of the wider face? Thanks.

Much enjoy your pics and descriptions.

I don't really think an even back cut would enhance a faster fall, Jay. What it does do is reduce the flexibility of the hinge and thus the period of time the hinge functions through the fall, and eliminate stump shot. Both of those results would seem to me to have potential downsides in an attempt to punch a tree through adjoining crowns. Do you wish me to elaborate?

Faster fall can be encouraged by deepening the face, gutting the hinge, thinning the holding wood, or a combination of any of the three.

 

[vharrison]

Great thread, Burn. Thanks for sharing!

 

[stig]

I always try to have a reason to do something with the saw. If nothing else, it makes the work so much more interesting to analyze what, how, when, for these things.

I do the same thing.
Sometimes I might ask you about something that I already know the reason for, just to get your take on it.
We work, after all, on opposite sides of the planet, so we do a lot of things different from each other. Learning why you do something gives me a bigger palette of tecniques to choose from.

Apart from all my past apprentices, I seem to be about the only dane to have a copy of GB's fundamentals. That alone puts me a little ahead of the competition.

Being able to have my questions answered by a f..king internet expert helps, too

 

[SkwerI]

I think Burnham has a new title, given to him by D. Dent himself.

 

[GASoline71]

LMAO Brian... he needs it in his sig line as a Dent quote.

Gary

 

[Burnham]

I do the same thing.
Sometimes I might ask you about something that I already know the reason for, just to get your take on it.
We work, after all, on opposite sides of the planet, so we do a lot of things different from each other. Learning why you do something gives me a bigger palette of tecniques to choose from.

Apart from all my past apprentices, I seem to be about the only dane to have a copy of GB's fundamentals. That alone puts me a little ahead of the competition.

Being able to have my questions answered by a f..king internet expert helps, too

LOL Stig...I rather suspected that you were not lacking in understanding the reason for the wide face openings. It is interesting to see the regional differences, let alone continental ones. It works both ways...we surely widen our range of techniques over here by virtue of your cogent posts.

 

[Husky D]

Good pics and thread as always Burnham but expect nothing less from the expert your now tagged as. Surprised to see a conventional face cut rather than the humbolt seen more commonally on your larger tree's on steeper ground any reason for this?

 

[simplypete]

Great pictures. My guess on the Conventional face rather that the Humbolt, is the fact that the Forest Service is more oriented towards stewardship and less prone to make every last board foot count. It seems to me that the Conventional face favors the man doing the cutting and the Humbolt favors the usefullness of the log.

 

[woodworkingboy]

I don't really think an even back cut would enhance a faster fall, Jay. What it does do is reduce the flexibility of the hinge and thus the period of time the hinge functions through the fall, and eliminate stump shot. Both of those results would seem to me to have potential downsides in an attempt to punch a tree through adjoining crowns. Do you wish me to elaborate?

Faster fall can be encouraged by deepening the face, gutting the hinge, thinning the holding wood, or a combination of any of the three.

I'm thinking that an even back cut is basically doing the same thing as thinning the holding wood, to an extent. I know that it's species related, and higher or lower doesn't necessarily translate into a faster falling tree. I understand your thinking on it defeating the longevity of direction keeping, and the concern about stump shot, an excellent point.

In your scenario, a hinge that has both good directional qualities and also allows the tree to fall faster, what about a gap in the hinge? I recall Jerry, in his book, elaborating on using a gap. I've found the gap to add a very good element to a hinge where you need the best directional control, in a somewhat different manner from just a wide face that meets at an acute angle.

 

[Burnham]

I'm thinking that an even back cut is basically doing the same thing as thinning the holding wood, to an extent. I know that it's species related, and higher or lower doesn't necessarily translate into a faster falling tree. I understand your thinking on it defeating the longevity of direction keeping, and the concern about stump shot, an excellent point.

In your scenario, a hinge that has both good directional qualities and also allows the tree to fall faster, what about a gap in the hinge? I recall Jerry, in his book, elaborating on using a gap. I've found the gap to add a very good element to a hinge where you need the best directional control, in a somewhat different manner from just a wide face that meets at an acute angle.

Absolutely, Jay. You make an great point regarding a gap at the hinge. And recall that trick I described a while back, that I learned from one of my hazard tree contract fallers? He bored a vertical slot right at the base of the front of the hinge to allow the hinge to flex more...same idea.

 

[Burnham]

Good pics and thread as always Burnham but expect nothing less from the expert your now tagged as. Surprised to see a conventional face cut rather than the humbolt seen more commonally on your larger tree's on steeper ground any reason for this?

I prefer the conventional so I don't have to eat as much wood chip being spit out by the saw when I start the sloping cut .

 

[Bermy]

I certainly appreciate the '...internet expert'...!
With my isolation out here on 'flyspeck island paradise' aka Bermuda, the internet is often the only place I get to read and discuss in almost real time, up to date and relevant information pertaining to our work!!

 

[simplypete]

Absolutely, Jay. You make an great point regarding a gap at the hinge. And recall that trick I described a while back, that I learned from one of my hazard tree contract fallers? He bored a vertical slot right at the base of the front of the hinge to allow the hinge to flex more...same idea.

I wonder if this cut would help out falling cottonwoods. Seems like the hinge always breaks long before closing, making it difficult to steer a side leaner all the way to the ground. Thanks for any advise in this matter. pete

 

[sotc]

LMAO Brian... he needs it in his sig line as a Dent quote.

Gary

Naw, he needs it right below his name I learn something or am reminded of things I may have forgotton in most of Burnham's threads

 

[Burnham]

I wonder if this cut would help out falling cottonwoods. Seems like the hinge always breaks long before closing, making it difficult to steer a side leaner all the way to the ground. Thanks for any advise in this matter. pete

Makes perfect sense to me that it could help. The old cutter who I first saw use this technique used it when he had dead or somewhat decayed wood at the hinge that he knew would not flex as well as green...this was in big conifers out here in Oregon. If the hinge wood was poorer on one side than the other, he's only bore in partway on the poor side, to help balance out the hinge action and keep the good side from pulling the tree into a swing.

 

[stig]

I have mentioned this a couple of times before, I think.
That vertical cut is called a " german cut" here, for unknown reasons. I use it on all pull trees, since it hardly takes any time to make, and the benefits are big.
Also on sideleaners and anything where I doubt the hinge strength.
In my experience, it makes the hinge hold for about 10-15 degree more fall of the tree, before it breaks.
Sometimes those few degrees make all the difference between success and failure.
One thing to be aware of, is that it only works if the fibers in the hinge run straight, otherwise it makes no difference.

But with the high stumps you guys are making, that'll probably never be an issue

 

[Burnham]

Right you are, Stig...I recall your german cut. Thanks for the estimate on improved hinge function, that's nice to have quantified by an experienced hand.

Those high stumps are the norm when falling hazard trees...to give the sawyer a step or two advantage in exiting the stump, and making it easier to observe the top during cutting. Much shorter stumps are demanded in harvesting...maybe not as short as your standard, though. 12 inch maximum is commonly specified here.

 

[GASoline71]

Good pics and thread as always Burnham but expect nothing less from the expert your now tagged as. Surprised to see a conventional face cut rather than the humbolt seen more commonally on your larger tree's on steeper ground any reason for this?

The Humboltd is also used mainly in production fallin' to get every last inch of BF out of a tree...

Gary

 

[boboak]

Good thread. Great pictures.

 

[rumination]

As usual, an excellent thread Burnham, very instructional. It sounds like you have acquired a new pseudonym.

 

[Burnham]

As usual, an excellent thread Burnham, very instructional. It sounds like you have acquired a new pseudonym.

Oh, great...:what:

 

[rumination]

Don't worry, you're an expert now!

 

[Newfie]

Great thread Burnham.

I hope I'm a know-it-all when I grow up!

 

[GASoline71]

Good thread. Great pictures.

Hi-ya Bob! You ever run across Dent in your travels as a faller?

Gary