Moronic indecisiveness

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fallen-sequoia-20111029,0,6767474.story

How hard is it to hire a faller to buck out the portion covering the trail? Much cheaper to do that than to plan and re-route and re-build the trail to ADA Standards.

Best to cut right through it and keep people from wandering around much. They have to limit the foot traffic since compaction is a huge problem for new growth. Something they have been battling for some time now.

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This is more than just a financial decision.

Now it's 99 giants. I wound buck off the root wad and salvage the timber it could help the park $ wise.

You'd need a somewhat longer bar than you have, Rajan.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is probably not in a location where you can just drive in with a crane and a loader. Salvaging the timber may not be a feasible option. I'd like to see it left as is and bridge it.

Right...a quote from the article linked:

"When you're dealing with a 1,500-year-old sequoia in a national monument, the questions aren't just logistical. They're environmental, emotive and potentially legal."

Maybe add a little side trail so folks can get an up-close look at the root ball.

ADA took me a second. I am sitting here eating lunch thinking, what does the American Dental Association have to do with anything, then my brain popped back into gear.

When you work along trees that are that old and stately, perhaps slowing down and pondering what to do is the natural way of things.

Jesus christ, it's just a tree. It died, it fell, time to move on.

A 10ft log is all that would need to be cut out. Cutting stairs into the tree (for an up and over route) is not ADA Accessible.

You can look at it as just a tree, or as something that has big aesthetic ramifications, if you might call it a monument and treat it as something that might have artistic potential. Making it into something beautiful and perhaps beyond what it currently is might take some consideration. Mount Rushmore was just a rock until 1927. Nothing wrong with some imagination.

What about Flying a Lucus Mill in there and Planking it?

Then selling the Wood and donating the proceeds to Charity?

Or just let it sit there and Rot away.................................?

forestryworks said:

A 10ft log is all that would need to be cut out.

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Yup, and that would expose the growth rings.

forestryworks said:

Jesus christ, it's just a tree. It died, it fell, time to move on.

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No shit!!!

woodworkingboy said:

You can look at it as just a tree, or as something that has big aesthetic ramifications, if you might call it a monument and treat it as something that might have artistic potential. Making it into something beautiful and perhaps beyond what it currently is might take some consideration. Mount Rushmore was just a rock until 1927. Nothing wrong with some imagination.

Click to expand...

You can still cut a 10ft log out for pathway clearance and it will still be a monument, a nurse log, and an attraction. Then you would have growth rings with metal tags that say "1592 - Such and such did this" for all the schoolkids and tourists to look at and whatnot. Instead of turning it into a silly, environmental, bleeding heart fiasco, they can put a faller to work (jobs), and get some education out of the fallen tree (more jobs).

It's not that complex of a situation, and the more ideas the USFS invites in, the more complex and silly this becomes.

But that's too simple for the government. Or is it a lot to ask?

There are some great chainsaw carvers out there. Block it up and let them have a go after submitting their portfolio and plans.....or is that too much man intervention for the environmentalists? All funded by the national endowment for the arts.

You're too young forestryworks, perhaps, to remember how hamstrung the Forest Service can get when an unhappy "interest group" decides it's not been given ample opportunity to voice it's position and influence management of public lands. Do not think for a moment that this is too trivial an issue to raise ire among certain parties...and lawsuits absolutely will stop your federal land managers in their tracks.

Before a judge, the FS has to be able to argue that decisions are made with due opportunity for the taxpayers to give input. Even if the input is not followed. Believe me, it has to work this way with public land resources, or the managing agency will be handed it's head in a court of law.

We have the same situation here.
The forest service is tied hands and feet by having to look out for what a thousand different organizations want.
Everything takes about 10 times as long as one would expect, because there are so many different players involved.

And, Forestryworks, next time you want to call an oldgrowth giant Sequoia " just a tree", try climbing one first.

That might change your mind

I'm well aware of the way the USFS works. All the hullabaloo involved in USFS (and other land management agencies) decisions is one of the direct reasons for the current mismanagement of our forests.

Somebody sues, the FS can't afford to fight it, and the one who sued gets their way, all in the name of further mismanagement.

Suing and backing up the suit with the severely abused Endangered Species Act is big business, corporate style, just ask the Center for Biological Diversity.

Why does a federal judge or some city slicker attorney get to have a say in a forest management decision? I doubt many of them have much of a background or even an interest in forest management, and they probably consider the paved valley of Yosemite to be "wilderness".

The Multiple Use Sustained Yield Act of 1960 is focusing less and less on timber. Without healthy forests, water quality suffers, range quality suffers, wildlife suffers and rec areas suffer.

The whole of Congress and Federal forest management policies need a severe reform, it is broken as it is.

Everything needs a reform as everything changes.

Burnham said:

You'd need a somewhat longer bar than you have, Rajan.

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I got a 16" bar that should be plenty.

Trying to make some headway in getting a safety program implemented for sawyers with the aid of Jerry's vids, I hear the complaint all the time that the people who manage our forests are members of a highly educated elite that have never strayed too far from the classrooms or their high rise offices. The summation of their experience has taken place basically indoors. Still, they would be the very last ones to realize, and certainly to admit, that their education is incomplete.

forestryworks said:

You can still cut a 10ft log out for pathway clearance and it will still be a monument, a nurse log, and an attraction. Then you would have growth rings with metal tags that say "1592 - Such and such did this" for all the schoolkids and tourists to look at and whatnot. Instead of turning it into a silly, environmental, bleeding heart fiasco, they can put a faller to work (jobs), and get some education out of the fallen tree (more jobs).

It's not that complex of a situation, and the more ideas the USFS invites in, the more complex and silly this becomes.

But that's too simple for the government. Or is it a lot to ask?

Click to expand...

I think this idea is a winner!

Not only can they cut out a 10' section, but then mill lumber out of the removed section for construction at the park. Be it siding on the Ranger's station, covered benches, an info booth, whatever. But use the lumber for something constructive on site.

Simply exposing the annual rings would be awesome!

Lots of things here to comment on...first is to apologize if my earlier post seemed condescending...wasn't meant to be.

forestryworks said:

I'm well aware of the way the USFS works. All the hullabaloo involved in USFS (and other land management agencies) decisions is one of the direct reasons for the current mismanagement of our forests.

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No argument from me there.

forestryworks said:

Somebody sues, the FS can't afford to fight it, and the one who sued gets their way, all in the name of further mismanagement.

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Oh, the FS can and has afforded to fight this sort of lawsuit time and again...and more often than not lost because the law requires specific things and not doing so is illegal. We tried doing things "our way, correct in our professional opinion"...got our asses kicked too, legally speaking.

What passes for mismanagement to one is responsible stewardship to another, and that's a fact.

forestryworks said:

Suing and backing up the suit with the severely abused Endangered Species Act is big business, corporate style, just ask the Center for Biological Diversity.

Why does a federal judge or some city slicker attorney get to have a say in a forest management decision? I doubt many of them have much of a background or even an interest in forest management, and they probably consider the paved valley of Yosemite to be "wilderness".

Click to expand...

Because in this country we see it as the proper way to conduct public policy to allow the folks who pay the bills, i.e. taxpayers, to have a voice in how public lands are managed...even when they are ignorant and base their positions on emotion. Attorneys are not the ones having their say, precisely...it's the interest groups that bring the suits, based on the laws our duly elected officials pass at the behest of their constituents. Judges have a say of course because that's their job...that's how our system of government works.

forestryworks said:

The Multiple Use Sustained Yield Act of 1960 is focusing less and less on timber. Without healthy forests, water quality suffers, range quality suffers, wildlife suffers and rec areas suffer.

Click to expand...

Here again...what defines a healthy forest is something our society has not agreed upon. Your statement is obviously correct, but how we go about achieving a "healthy forest" generates much debate still.

forestryworks said:

The whole of Congress and Federal forest management policies need a severe reform, it is broken as it is.

Everything needs a reform as everything changes.

Click to expand...

No question, you are right. I would only point out that the experienced professional and technical forestry management specialists in the FS and other agencies know how to do these things well, it's the policy makers who are in the dark.

Good post, forestryworks.