Notchless Felling?

squisher said:
As residential arbs I would recommend people use every spar or tree they can to practice the basics of making a clean face using the conventional, humboldt, and open styles. Master these three notches and cutting up a proper hinge/backcut with all the cuts being clean and in-line. That is what is going to gain efficiency and save time when one develops the skill and confidence to start knocking some sticks down instead of climbing and over rigging everything.
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THIS!
 
Some good discussion here for the most part and you won't catch me doing notchless felling.
I wish I had gotten involved sooner in the thread but just catching up from about the first mind blowing comment by Murphy.
I watch your compilation and the only thing I see mind blowing is how with so many of the pieces you chopped off they almost all just nose into the ground:thumbdown:
I have not been at this for a seriously long time but I fail to see why the flip and land flat is almost never accomplished:banghead:
Please pm me why as I don't wish to derail.

In my mind even a kerf cut makes a notch all but small with a loss of follow through once closed.
 
The only time I use notchless felling is when its like 4" and under and were you can man handle that tree down like a small sweet gum for example.
other than that I "Always" notch for control.... a Hinge is your friend
 
For those that missed the below reference...... cuts at :02, 6:10 and 6:14 were made without notches... the cut at 6:10 was made shoulder level... tough to cut a clean notch there with a 66... you can see the tree hit the lay perfectly, and better yet the faller (me) had left the building..


murphy4trees said:
<iframe width="640" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/crapyE4c6ow" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:02, 6:10, 6:14
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Holy smokes you guys:big-wave:......now I get a quick reminder why I hated AS.
I learnt a neat little trick at a recent tree removal course out in Alberta. Making snap cuts on verticle saplings 2-3" dia- 12 ft high. Two quick slash cuts opposite each other 2" apart ,each passing line of grain. Snap the stem off and lay down where you want it to lay. No hang ups or dragging out of surrounding trees.
Sorry no video:)
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #106
Not asking fellers to give up notching trees.
the point is to make use of what the tree provides. Wood!
How many of you utilize the twister cut, beaver cut, plunge cut etc and
apply your experiences with tension and/or compression wood.

The root flare is the most tenacious wood in trees and from a few of my experiences has been
much more reliable/better at hinging than heart wood.

Challenge is to understand the science of wood and build that into your practices.

The opposite would be Backcutless Felling and once again is something that I ahve done many times so as tip a tree
and make use of the more flexible sapwood and young xylem. Like a Beaver would do.
 
So I have a standing dead Elm, 23" at the ground, heavy lean to the North, house to the West, main thorough fair to the West, tree will have to go between a stop sign and a crossing light to the North, as well as another street.
Bark is falling off of it as well as a few widow maker hangers in the top. Is this a good candidate for notchless felling?
 
RopeArmour said:
The root flare is the most tenacious wood in trees and from a few of my experiences has been
much more reliable/better at hinging than heart wood.
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I disagree with that assesment and think you could get someone in a lot of trouble with that type of advice. Perhaps it species and even individually dependent. I know the trunk flare is might tough to split and can be extremely gnarly hard stuff... BUT that doesn't make it better hinging wood... I think nice straight grain makes a more reliable hinge.. that squirrely twisting grain is not what you're looking for in a hinge..

I wouldn't advocate the technique you suggest.. I also wouldn't condemn it, without trying it. It is most likely that the gnarly grain in the trunk flare is going to do a much better job at preventing barber chair.. SO maybe it could be used in the right situation.. The up side doesn't seem to do you much good though.. What are you really saving.. On the other hand there are other techniques for transcending the notch that have some very importnant advantages.
 
I agree with Dan, that anything other than straight grain is very much unpredictable, and dependent on qualities of the individual tree and that specific location in it. Straight grain definitely has reliability, not necessarily that you may depend on it more for success in a specific case, but that at least you can generally assume the common behavior. I believe that with hinge wood, you are best looking for consistency across the entire width, that is pretty iffy when the grain become irregular. You may have better holding qualities on one side, but the opposite on the other. When it comes to the possibility of barberchair, I think it is much the same, the tendencies of straight grain at least allows you to hedge your bet. Good to know that a straight grained wood like Black Acacia will have a strong tendency to barberchair if you allow it the chance. On the one hand it is a good bending wood, but that can be overridden by the poor adhesion between the wood fibers at the cellular level. Considered a rather tough wood, but i think that most people splitting wood for a living will tell you that they like it when it is straight.
 
I agree with Dan too, even with the barberchair. The gnarly grain is difficult to split and it locks the fibers together. That prevents (theoretically) the split to begin in the straight part a few inches above.
But is that reliable ? I don't think so, it's risky to count on it for me, because even in the root flare there are some straight grained areas. Pass near the right spot and the trunk can explode. Same thing if there 's some decay inside the stump.

An other point worries me:
In a regular hinge, the working fibers are captive in the middle of the wood. They work essentially in a traction mode during the bending, like a rope, that's why the hinge is so strong (regardless of the species).
With a notchless felling, the hinge is pushed back to the front, near the wood's surface. Problem, the soft wood can be more flexible than the hearth wood, nothing holds the fibers sideway. So when they are pulled during the bending, they are easily peeled right off the buttress roots. Very few holding power here, the tree goes almost where he want. A big no no for side leaners and heavy trees.
 
Speaking of the strength of wood in a hinge, I notice that the elms in ND have wood that snaps very similar to cottonwood in many cases. When I was working in Ohio and IL, you could often swing a branch quite a ways around a tree with just a small notch and a cut from the opposite side. Up here it seems to move about 5 degrees and then just snaps. Suppose it has something to do with the biology of trees grown under the conditions of a short growing season with long days or something. I know that fast growing trees are usually more brittle than the slower growing ones. If any one has a good explanation of the biology involved let me know. Sorry about the slight derail, but it just occurred to me that this might account for some of the differences in personal experiences.
 
Where trunk wood meets root-flare the wood fibers are tough, and whenever the corners of my hinge was over a root-flare I've had a lot of wood pulled out of the trees. Pretty consistently with a lot of species in my parts. I've had root-flare rip the whole side of some Douglas fir out. Ruined some butt logs terribly. However bad that may be at times for commercial logs, over the years I've purposely cornered my hinge over root-flare to use the effect to help pull some trees around to a lay. There's a lot of fact in this.

Now just using root-flare by itself to guide a tree another thing. But when root-flare is incorporated with the corner of a hinge, or both corners!!,, it's going to be a strong hinge. That's my experience and theory about root-flare.


Wood fiber characteristics vary wildly, as Bob pointed out. And much like him I believe the strength of wood fiber is due mostly to the environment the tree grows in. A huge data base could result from any thorough research done on the subject. So much for science. In the meantime, at work, we rely on our experience and gut feeling when utilizing wood fiber to guide a tree. In any manner.
 
Much can be said about wood fiber strength, Ben. It's a cool subject to toss around in internet forums. Peoples practical experience, at present I think, outweighs any science done on the subject. Much can be shared about it on these forums from those with experience, and young'uns can gain years of knowledge in a short time.

Still nothing beats practical experience in anything. Ha!
 
Based on the tables and all the research testing by scientists that goes into it, I have to think that fiber strength is more dependent on species variation, than environment. It has greatly been analyzed, and often the tables are set up for a degree of fluctuation, like for specific gravity. Environment must be some factor, along with moisture content. Environment does affect color somewhat, and some species are more prone to that. I've worked with mucho the same species from different locations, and more often than not, the hardness and other qualities is quite consistent. Every once-in-awhile you run into something where you have to ask, wtf?
 
gf beranek said:
Where trunk wood meets root-flare the wood fibers are tough, and whenever the corners of my hinge was over a root-flare I've had a lot of wood pulled out of the trees. Pretty consistently with a lot of species in my parts. I've had root-flare rip the whole side of some Douglas fir out. Ruined some butt logs terribly. However bad that may be at times for commercial logs, over the years I've purposely cornered my hinge over root-flare to use the effect to help pull some trees around to a lay. There's a lot of fact in this.

Now just using root-flare by itself to guide a tree another thing. But when root-flare is incorporated with the corner of a hinge, or both corners!!,, it's going to be a strong hinge. That's my experience and theory about root-flare.


Wood fiber characteristics vary wildly, as Bob pointed out. And much like him I believe the strength of wood fiber is due mostly to the environment the tree grows in. A huge data base could result from any thorough research done on the subject. So much for science. In the meantime, at work, we rely on our experience and gut feeling when utilizing wood fiber to guide a tree. In any manner.
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You can get away with a lot of things on western conifers that would get you in a lot of trouble in eastern hardwood... Interesting to note the difference in perspectives.. and we haven't even touched on twist in the grain..
 
Murph, A fellow that looks a lot like your picture in your avatar is felling some trees on park property this week. You haven't been in Minot the last week or so have you?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #122
Curiosity and practical experience seems to me to be a good combo.

Twist in the grain is generally something I only experience with open grown trees.
Forest or sheltered trees do not seem to twist.
I am going to read up on this>
 
I notchless felled about twenty trees yesterday problem is is that I cut them off the stump before the were even half way to the lay. They were all 3" or less on the stump.
 
HolmenTree said:
Holy smokes you guys:big-wave:......now I get a quick reminder why I hated AS.
I learnt a neat little trick at a recent tree removal course out in Alberta. Making snap cuts on verticle saplings 2-3" dia- 12 ft high. Two quick slash cuts opposite each other 2" apart ,each passing line of grain. Snap the stem off and lay down where you want it to lay. No hang ups or dragging out of surrounding trees.
Sorry no video:)
Click to expand...
with all the sarcasm on this thread I couldn't tell if you are serious. you really just learned a snap cut or are you joking and think snap cuts are stupid? also what is AS?
 
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