Bigger Than Normal Notches - For Me.

[bonner1040]

So I got a picture from my boss and it reminded me of one thing that bothered me about the job:



I was cutting a notch in a fairly well sized spar (Burnham...i didn't call it big ) I was running the 066 with a 28" bar which was the biggest i had available. The back of the notch ended up more than twice the length of the bar because as the saw came across on the bottom cut the operator rotated the saw from right to left setting the depth by burying the bar. (The bottom cut was made by the 'boss/estimator/guy' and I took over after it was clear he was a little out of his comfort zone.)

I didn't have any problems lining the cuts up and after placing the top cut and piecing the notch into thirds I smashed the pieces out with a sledge...

As you can see above I ended up with some 'remainder' in the middle, ultimately it was held on by mere slivers, but I couldn't get it out whatever I tried... Every time I tried to get the saw in there it just kicked and I gave up trying.

In the end I just dropped the stick because we were in a field and it didn't REALLY matter where it fell. I try to do everything the right way if only to learn and it bothers me a bit that I couldn't get the notch clean. It fell right on target and the stuff left in there didn't make the hinge break early or anything.

Looking at the picture, there were cuts into the 'remainder' on top and bottom parallel with the inside of the notch. It was really held on just by the back where the top and bottom meet. FWIW I tried smashing it out obviously.

Any tips?

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Your attachment or link is not working.

 

[bonner1040]

Your attachment or link is not working.

fixed.

 

[NickfromWI]

Yeah- and I wanna see the pic!

 

[bonner1040]

Is it still not working?

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Working
Huh! Wonder why you could not cut it out or even bang it out with an axe. Only time I ever get grief like that is when I found wire. You check your chain when you finished?

 

[bonner1040]

Working
Huh! Wonder why you could not cut it out or even bang it out with an axe. Only time I ever get grief like that is when I found wire. You check your chain when you finished?

No I didn't... the chain was wrecked to begin with anyway actually...I only used the 066 for the bar length since we are always in such a hurry. After it was down I used my 460 with a sharp 25 inch chain to put down the majority of the cuts while one of the other guys ran the 066 from the other side. It was the widest log I have ever personally dropped, enough so that it was uncomfortable cutting the top of it once it was laying down and I am 6'6 in my Redwings.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

One of the ways I have solved the apex issue in the past was to eliminate the apex and block it out. Like in Greg's (Klimbinfool) avatar. I just bored across the back of the apex and then fixed the face. See if this shows up. If not maybe Greg can post the original.

 

[bonner1040]

So it is just a rectangular void instead of a notch? Like the jack seat/slot that they use in the videos on old growth falling?

The avatar was pretty hard to see but thats the idea I am getting.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Yes. But you can use your existing face cut with some doctoring.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Here Nick.
If I were to have to fix this face cut......
Bore in along the back of the apex (red)
Then doctor your upper and lower cuts on your existing face (blue) as necessary or.....
Finish the block cut (if your under cut is cool to the bore cut) shown in green.
Best I can describe it.

 

[SouthSoundTree]

Pretty much what I'd do in some situations. That can give you some more flexibility in the hinge, too.




Looks like the center was rotted a bit. If you use the tip of the bar and bypass cut the two kerf in the center of a wide stump, you will still have your corners to direct it to the lay. It is like if you have a hollow tree, the center is completely missing, and it can work.

 

[bonner1040]

My issue was that from the sides of the notch my bar didnt reach the middle. IE the apex of the notch was like 59" across, and my bar was only 28"...thats what left the middle attached... so I tried coming in from the center laying the saw flat on the bottom and then turning it upside down flat to the top sloping side, but every time I pushed that bar in it just kicked all over and scared the crap out of me...

The center was rotted a bit, effectively I think I did what you are saying SST, I got the cut in the middle past the apex on the bottom, basically gutting the center of the hinge, since i was worried about bar length. I just couldn't disconnect that bit on the top I guess...

Stephen, If I do what you describe and basically make the apex a vertical wall or block cut, do you bring the back cut in level with the bottom or a bit higher?

 

[woodworkingboy]

What I have learned from Jerry on that point, is making your back cut even with the top of the gap, will then have the split run from the edge of your back cut to the bottom of the gap. The hinge will break at the bottom of the gap and will leave some stump shot. I believe it is generally the preferred method.

I think that if you can't reach that center plug of wood at the apex, either from the sides or front, you can be kind of stuck until the tree can overcome the resistance with a very deep back cut, and the hinge could be compromised. Far better to have a longer saw.

 

[murphy4trees]

a wider face would give more room for the body of the saw. You could even plunge out a slot big enough for the saw if you really needed too.. That's what it looks like they do from the pics.. no need for that around here.

 

[SouthSoundTree]

Hindsight will probably have already told you this... take the time to change tools or fix the tool you're using if its screwed up and you're right at the truck. Change out to the 460/ other saw to clean out the middle, or change/ sharpen you chain and file your rakers.

Working with tools in bad condition makes things easily get frustrating, and leads to lesser judgment, or stubbornness at times, where one can get stuck on a plan (e.g. keep trying to fiddle with a big saw to clean out a small spot... A 200t could allow you the working size and shape to get into that face).

 

[wiley_p]

First off, NEVER use a dull saw. It is a waste of time. Gotta get that down first.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

First off, NEVER use a dull saw. It is a waste of time. Gotta get that down first.

Amen Brother!

 

[Burnham]

Looks big to me, no kidding .

I can't tell from the picture...what percentage of the diameter was the depth of the face cut? If it's over 1/3, your task was made harder with perhaps no advantage. Another thought...a wider opened face can allow you to reach deeper in from the front to complete those areas of the face cut, by allowing space for the saw body to be inside the face some. Sniping could have done this for you, or a bird's mouth face, or start with a steeper angle on the upper cut.

The fact that that center post appears rotten helped avoid an off lay fell...that wood crushed rather than served as a pivot point, I expect.

You perhaps needed better tools to blow that tidbit out, a 6 foot tamping bar with a post hole blade on the other end makes short work of that situation, though on a tree of that size an axe should have worked fine.

Dave and Stephen are right, a dull chain must be sharpened or swapped out before use. Period. To start out felling a large tree with a short barred saw that's not cutting worth a toot is a fools errand.

 

[stig]

I have nothing to add, except that if somebody starts felling a tree, I'm not going to take over.
Might give them some advice, but they made their own bed, they can damned well sleep in it

Are you running skip or full comp chain on that saw.
Dull chains are worthless for boring, but dull skip is worse than dull full comp.

 

[Al Smith]

I'm kinda like the west coast crowd with regards to longer bars .Sure you can do it with a shorty but it's lot more simple if you can get at least a tad more than half the diameter at one pass .

 

[winch]

I'm with Al here, was going to mention the same. All the tricks in the world aren't as easy as just using the right (and sharp) tool in the first place.

I have an 880 with a 5' bar for those types of trees. Not tons of them around here, but when there is a crane on site, that bar pays for itself rather quickly. Ever spin around a tree more than once with a too-short-bar when a crane is on site and charging at least 100/hour? I bet you won't again!

Crane work alone justifies the buying of such a ridiculous-looking bar, but I also would want one for trees like that when you are knocking them over. I bet there were a few cuts after the felling cut to make logs - no fun cutting from both sides on that either, especially if you are nervous about cutting it in the first place. Doesn't matter how tall you are!

 

[lumberjack]

Dull tools aren't acceptable.

A $200/hr crane is an expensive line item, but your crew rate is every day you work and it should be at LEAST $60++/man hour.

 

[Burnham]

If I'm expecting to have a high dollar per hour piece of equipment on such and such a job, I'm a dummy for not having all my tools that support that equipment in peak operating condition, and spares to back them up, ready to go that day.

That's the way to save crane hours; certainly not by cutting with a dull saw because it takes too much time to stop and sharpen in the midst of the job.

 

[winch]

With all due respect, Burnham, I would NEVER sharpen a saw while a crane was setting there burning fuel and time. I think my head would explode if I saw my groundman doing that instead of grabbing another saw.

I definitely think the better way of going about it if you don't have another big saw at the job is to switch chains - I don't care how good you are at sharpening, it takes longer to correctly sharpen a chain by hand than it does to switch it out with one that you are 100% sure is already sharp. Plus, what about the depth gauges?

Different (file) strokes for different folks, I suppose.