What, exactly IS a 'hack' tree person?

[DMc]

Some thought-provoking comments here. I don't often use the term "hack" but when I do it is referring to bad quality work.

I guess I don't agree with everyone here that with enough knowledge you automatically become a great tree person. I know several very knowledgeable individuals that should only be allowed to do removals because the aesthetic quality of their pruning is awful. It is like someone who is taught the science of music but is tone deaf and cannot apply that knowledge. There are many people who know how to sing, but can't.

Many dentists spend years in school; I still wouldn't let them work on my teeth. What separates a great surgeon from the "run of the mill" surgeon...even though they have the same education?

Even with removals, there is an art and rhythm of movement that compliments the skill and bravado that produces a masterpiece of efficient movement.

Ornamental trimming is just that; there is a definite element of aesthetics. What I absolutely love about tree work is that the skills and knowledge required are as complex and diverse as the very trees we work on.

Dave

 

[woodworkingboy]

Getting to a job and their chainsaws don't start, and/or run like cr@p.
Often, creatures from hacksville.

 

[sawinredneck]

Ok, to take this a WHOLE different route.
Just down the street from me, a gentleman had five Silver Maples "topped" around five years ago. Completly butchered, it was really sad. I don't know the reasoning, but I am sure that is what he asked for, so the company complied. Hey, I'm for making a buck and that is what you have to do.
These poor trees never had a chance after that. It has gotten to the point bark is coming off in FEET sections and the stumps are rotting at the base.
So these trees really need to be removed. PERIOD!
I had the wonderful oportunity of watching "hacks b us" today. He had a "crew" come and trim off the "suckers" on these trees. ALL ladder work. No ropes, no tie-in's, no safeties. Showed up with a couple of Dolmar saws that I wouldn't even waste my time because they were so dull!! Yeah, step ladders, extension ladders and a few saws, HEY!! "I gots me a saw, and a ladder, I R A P YROFESIONAL!!"

 

[gf beranek]

A very fine analogy, Dave. And certainly a good addition to the many constructive posts in this thread trying to define what exactly a hack is.

I believe Frans Smith from Healdsburg California should get an honorable mention for starting this thread, and for the fact that the members of the house have maintain a more constructive view of the issue than a condemning one.

It certainly shows the colors of membership in the house.

 

[woodworkingboy]

Good point Jerry, on Dave's good point

Having a sensitive eye for things is really important. Part is training and experience, part is inherent talent. Te best way of looking at things is not only with your eyes, a teacher told me many years ago. "You must learn how to look at things, determine what your eye wants to see".

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Humility I think should also come into play. If you don't know, then say so, refer somebody and/or go do the research. Too many times have I heard of someone giving somebody poor and uneducated advise or answers. Or doing the work based on such derived opinions. I hope that makes sense....

 

[Treevet]

That makes plenty of sense.

As mentioned earlier....knowing the rules does not insure a good pruning job if one does not have that "special something", say artistic ability, sensitivity and such.

Conversely, one may be the king of sensitivity and artsy fartsy but if they do not know the rules the attempt at helping the tree may kill it (loving a tree to death). Cutting into the branch collar, tearing cuts, spiking, dropping on the root crown, overpruning, leaving stubs, internodal cuts, etc. etc. turns a perceived positive into a negative.

gotto know the tree.

 

[sotc]

No dumping $1000.00 dollar fine. He yanked the truck over to the side and dumped the truck right there. Said that sounds like a great deal.

sorry but thats funny!!

 

[TC3]

You beat me to the re-post, Willie !!! Still giggling over that one.

Most excellent posts & insight. My idea of the derogatory hack is in line with Dave, with the addition of lack of safety. Seeing a bunch of buffoons with no regard for safety makes the whole industry look like retards.

 

[thattreeguy]

nice,
all really pro answers, no weird emotions ....
i have some competition i used to call hackers, they top and strip every piece of green off a tree.
i used to work for several arborists that are hackers.
i left all of those places due to the overwhelming negative feelings due to non integrous work.
i dont sleep well knowing that i did or was party to bad tree work
integrity is the key issue at heart, doing what is right for the tree and the situation, and being accountable for ones actions
its a small world up here if i were to do crappy work, everyone would know,
thats why we get a lot of refferal work, and client education is huge,
when i do a bid i take my time and assess each trees needs and advise, sometimes i turn down work , because the tree is just not in need of pruning, people like the time i spend on their trees, rather than just write a price on a bus card with no description of the work to be done, like some of my competition, people love our itemized inventory, and care forecast for future tree work
GREAT THREAD FRANS!!!

 

[MasterBlaster]

Well, don't be afraid to rate it!

 

[Thor's Hammer]

How do you define someone who is highly qualified at treework, 20 years experienced, and understands the biomechanics and the microbiology of trees, their growth and repair mechanisms - and happily tops them?

You see, I dont give a damn about topping a tree. I really dont. Guess that makes me a super hack

 

[Mr. Sir]

Or maybe a sub-hack. :what:

 

[Frans]

How do you define someone who is highly qualified at treework, 20 years experienced, and understands the biomechanics and the microbiology of trees, their growth and repair mechanisms - and happily tops them?

You see, I dont give a damn about topping a tree. I really dont. Guess that makes me a super hack

Good question.

It leads to several questions:

Is the topping arbitrary or do you usually have a reason? Like, anxiety from the customer that the tree is 'too tall'.?
Topping several trees to make them smaller in order to fit in with the rest of the landscape?

Topping is a hard question because there are so many many variables.

I would say your a hack if you just hack off the top of a tree and make bad cuts doing it with the idea of just doing some tree action in order to make a fast buck.


But it is a very hard question.

Is a doctor a hack who allows a women to have 14 children? Or gives a women breasts the size of basket balls?

Another scenario: I live in the wine country. Well some growers grade land to create a vineyard by stripping off all the top soil in order to level the ground.
Then they come in, plant, and spend the next 15-20 years intensively fertilizing and watering in order to get the vines to grow in the sub-soil.
Are they hack growers?

Are you a hack if you feel bad about the way you do your job, but do it anyway?

 

[sawinredneck]

If you have done everything you can to educate the owner. Explained all the reasons why toping this tree is bad, and what is going to happen to this tree in the near future, what more can you do?

Is a landscaper a hack because he recomended a Bradford Pear tree in the front yard because it will grow fast, produce shade quickly, but be a POS tree in a few years?

Both of these solved issues that concernd the homeowner regardless the information given them.

At the end of the day, we all have bills to pay and need to make money.

 

[Thor's Hammer]

Are you a hack if you feel bad about the way you do your job, but do it anyway?

what if I dont feel bad about it? maybe I'm a tree psychopath.

 

[MasterBlaster]

PsycoHack, LOL!

 

[gf beranek]

"Psycohack" I think you just made a new word there, Butch.

 

[Mr. Sir]

Haha, and it rhymes with "Nosack"

 

[Altissimus]

G.F.B. mentions "the craft" (I think it's in the introduction to "Fundamentals")... perhaps the Hack has little or no connection to this concept ....

 

[DMc]

How do you define someone who is highly qualified at treework, 20 years experienced, and understands the biomechanics and the microbiology of trees, their growth and repair mechanisms - and happily tops them?

You see, I dont give a damn about topping a tree. I really dont. Guess that makes me a super hack

Thor, Let's rephrase your question with some other profession besides a treeworker in its place.

How about auto mechanic. This guy's got 20 years experience, knows every nut and bolt you can throw at him, and can rebuild an engine blind folded, but just doesn't give a damn if the car he is suppose to fix is going to run right when he gives it back to the customer.

How would you view this individual?

Dave

 

[rumination]

As long as the customer asked for a car that didn't run right...

 

[DMc]

LOL, and we know how often that happens as they hand over the check smiling. Commenting "Well, I sure hope this doesn't run better than when I brought it in."

Dave

 

[Frans]

Thor, Let's rephrase your question with some other profession besides a treeworker in its place.

How about auto mechanic. This guy's got 20 years experience, knows every nut and bolt you can throw at him, and can rebuild an engine blind folded, but just doesn't give a damn if the car he is suppose to fix is going to run right when he gives it back to the customer.

How would you view this individual?

Dave

I think that is a great illustrative example.

Except that you could also say that about a mechanic to install a lift kit which ends up making the truck wander down the road.

orrrr sompthin like that

 

[Thor's Hammer]

Mechanics and doctors are bad examples.

You see, tree 'health' is how we percieve it. Yet 'topping' a tree has very little adverse effects in the long term. Sure, it can create a vector for pathogenic attack, but so can a 101 other things in a perfectly tree. Over here, some of our oldest veteran trees, some up to a 1000 years old have been repeatedly topped / pollarded / coppiced.

So how can you say that topping is harming the health of a tree?

I can't abide the Doctor analogy. Cut someones head off, they die. Cut a tree down to the ground, and in 50 years a fresh tree will have grown from the coppice stool. You just can't compare the biological makeup of the 2 different entity's.

As for mechanics, if someone asks a brilliant mechanic to fit an oversized supercharger to their tired old engine, and offers to pay him in full, do you think he's going to care if that engine self distructs? He can warn the owner, but its their decision.

Most of the condemnation of Hacks comes from percieved aesthetics, rather than morality differences. NOBODY is in this business as a charity.
e.g. - certified arborists will take endless amount of money from customers for deadwooding and thinning trees in the full knowledge that the works carried out are of NO benefit to the trees health whatsoever. In fact, the continuall removal of dead wood has proven to be extremely detrimental to the wider eco system in the long term. So can I now accuse these arborists of being Hacks? Or should we all just live and let live, and concentrate on what we are doing, rather than the mistakes everyone else is making.