Scary thing

[woodworkingboy]

This big tree thinning job I'm involved in, lots of scenarios coming up. Big trees in thick woods, its impossible not to get some...many, hung up, and determining lean....a lot of the trees you can't even see the upper portion clearly, how the limb spread is going to influence. Just have to hunch it out and pay attention when cutting....get a wedge in.

A lot of the leaners, I'm cool with bucking them up through the bind, and dropping them in sections while getting closer to the holding tree, but sometimes the tree being cut, ends up being almost vertical, and still can be some pretty big wood hung up. Sometimes it's hard to tell if when the tree eventually falls, which direction it's going to go, slide off one side or another, or fall back from the tree it's leaning against. I've been able to use a rope on a couple smaller ones, when the buck was all the way through, but the tree didn't fall, give it a good yank, but when cutting and the tree does kick free, I've had some where I really had to bail out of there pronto. The drop does weird things, creates momentum, sometimes the tree changes directions in it's eventual fall, starts to slide off one side then comes back . Hope I'm describing it sufficiently, any ideas on safer methods here?

Thanks.

 

[pantheraba]

Good description, Jay...I'll be interested to see what ideas come through.

Is it impractical to limb them pretty far up to help decrease the chance of hangups...I realized the top could still hang but the lower limbs won't be a problem anyway.

Would cabling/securing the butt from 2 directions help control the backsliding/sideways possible movement when it gets hungup...have a limiter on the butt? They would need to be releasable under tension.

 

[MasterBlaster]

You can't climb the hanger uppers and reduce the top?

 

[Gord]

If the butt is just sitting freely (not stuck) on the ground you can reach up high and put in a notch as if you were going to fell the leaner towards the support tree, then tie on a rope above the cut, retreat and pull the rope so the tree folds, the butt coming closer to you. It'll induce enough lean that the tree is likely to fall away from you if it does fall, at any rate it gives you a bit of wiggle room.

I'm not sure how big of trees we're talking, obviously anything very big would need to be pulled with a machine rather than by hand.

If the butt is stuck in the ground, an opposing notch can be cut at ground level to let the tree fold easier.

You've got the make sure to cut the tree up far enough so that the hinges folds easily, usually not a problem if the tree is almost vertical.

Oh, and always keep your head up when fenceposting stuff down, lots of potential for falling limbs. A longish bar is nice to give you a bit of distance so you can keep your eyes on the crown.

 

[Tree Reb]

There were a couple of hints in this thread if you missed it.

http://www.masterblasterhome.com/showthread.php?t=10671

 

[gf beranek]

The ol' Masdam rope come-along is a useful tool for working down small hung up trees. With it you can counter the natural tendencies of the situation. Specially folding the tree against its natural favor.

I believe you have one on the way.

 

[thattreeguy]

i learned using a 32 in ch bar
was shown a steep under cut finished with the top cut directly over the bottom cut, and she'll drop out a length and fall down ,
i know what you mean, each block that comes out, the tree gets more vertical
until it goes over backward or sideways
keeps ya on your toes, dont it?
check out burnhams pics, probabally safer tham my technique
be safe jay
post a pic would ya

 

[sotc]

Can you drive it with another tree?

 

[Burnham]

Jay, it's so hard to give any kind of meaningful advice on this, as each and every single tree you have to deal with presents it's own unique set of challenges.

Try to read which direction the top will more easily slide off of the tree it's hung in. Use an angled bucking cut to make the butt of the top (the new butt, from where you buck) go the opposite way. Of course that means the two sides of the buck point will come towards you if you position yourself away from where the top is hopefully going to move...so neither side is a particularly safe place to be. I'd advise useing a long bar and keeping your escape path well cleared.

Willie's suggestion to use a driving tree to take out the hangup is usually considered the safest option...until you end up with 2, or 3 hung in a mishmash from hell .

 

[Old Monkey]

We used to do stuff like that all the time in the Forest Service. I thought it was pretty fun, like working a puzzle out. With the tree off the stump, we'd reach up and put a vertical cut(diagonal on the leaning stem)on the top down, stopping before it pinches and then finishing it up from the bottom, followed by getting out of the way. If you can cut the far 1/3rd first, you can finish the cut from farther away. Some times I will put face cuts to the left or right to try to get the butt to kick out one way or the other. On the rare occasion I have put face cuts pointing in opposite directions to kick the way I want it to. In the woods, I never had ropes or mechanical support. I maybe nuts but it was fun and I wish I was doing it now.

 

[JIML]

If the butt is just sitting freely (not stuck) on the ground you can reach up high and put in a notch as if you were going to fell the leaner towards the support tree, then tie on a rope above the cut, retreat and pull the rope so the tree folds, the butt coming closer to you. It'll induce enough lean that the tree is likely to fall away from you if it does fall, at any rate it gives you a bit of wiggle room.

I'm not sure how big of trees we're talking, obviously anything very big would need to be pulled with a machine rather than by hand.

If the butt is stuck in the ground, an opposing notch can be cut at ground level to let the tree fold easier.

You've got the make sure to cut the tree up far enough so that the hinges folds easily, usually not a problem if the tree is almost vertical.

Oh, and always keep your head up when fenceposting stuff down, lots of potential for falling limbs. A longish bar is nice to give you a bit of distance so you can keep your eyes on the crown.

What he said! Use this alot when cutting trees off of powerlines, most of the time uproots from wind/water. Notching it and steering the butt where you want it can be a big help sometimes.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I must be missing the point of this thread.

When I can't throw a tree, then I'll climb it.

 

[Old Monkey]

Clearing out in the woods is different Butch. Climbing every tree that might get hung up in a thicket would seriously slow you down. There are some pretty dense areas of forest where you may have to fall a dozen trees before one hits the ground. Have you ever seen a stand of lodge pole pine?

 

[MasterBlaster]

Heck, I dunno - I'd assume so.

 

[RIVERRAT]

Have you ever seen a stand of lodge pole pine?

Are those pines that have been lodged together?

 

[Old Monkey]

Lodgepole pines are not particularly big trees but I was just using them as an example of thick forest where its hard not to get trees hung up.

 

[MasterBlaster]

It appears that it's a given one would need a way/tractor to pull a hung up tree out, then.

And no, I've never worked a 'stand' of trees like that.

 

[stig]

Willie's suggestion to use a driving tree to take out the hangup is usually considered the safest option...until you end up with 2, or 3 hung in a mishmash from hell .

And your apprentice takes a picture of it and shows it to eveybody else in the woods!!

Keep a winch on hand for that kind of job. It doesn't even have to be very big, I've pulled big hung-up beech trees down with a 1 tonner by setting the pull line high in the tree using a throwline.
That way I didn't have to break out the 5 ton Tirfor, dragging that thing into the woods is a pain.

 

[murphy4trees]

Never did even see the cutting on a landclearing or logging operation. And I can tell you what works well on hurricane clean ups, where there are lots of hung leaners in suburban situations...

Make your cut vertical, which is the way the piece wants to drop (usually), straight down with gravity. On a leaning tree this is going to end up looking like a salami cut.

I used to start from the top, as high as I could reach, cut almost through, then nip the bottom a little below the match and run fast... as mentioned above..

Then on Hurricane Isabel in Virginia, John Paul Sanbourn told me what his crew was doing and I like it A LOT better, because it gives more escape time.. Instead of cutting from the top, plunge it (again with a vertical cut) and start high, leaving just a little strap up top. As the saw finished through the the bottom of the cut, the little strap up top will slow the drop as it breaks slowly, giving the cutter a lot more time to react...

If the piece is top heavy, leaning over a house or wall or other tree, the butt will move back and away from the fulcrum, which is rarely the case, even on hurricanes, and I woudl think almost never occurs in logging... If the piece is butt heavy it will drop straight down and of course beging to get straight as more pieces are cut...

Once it is so straight as to make the vertical cut ineffective, you need to be real careful, cause when it goes, it can go any direction.. Usually an angled snap cut will work on small and medium stuff... Just finish it with a good hard kick and LOOK UP!

Don't just run unless your escape path is protected by other trees, or buildings.. Look up and get ready to dance. You'll have plenty of time to move as the tree is starting off pretty straight. Running blindly away hoping it doesn't fall towards you is playing russian roulette..

 

[woodworkingboy]

Good thoughts...thanks.

Just to clarify the job, it's sort of an endless one, walking through large tracts and leaving at least 5-7 meter spacing between the large pines, so that the much smaller limber yielding Cypress can better prosper. Last year they implemented a percentage of tax money going to maintain these government owned forests, so I'm hearing it's a five-six year project. Bidding on the work, must be like five or six outfits in my area going for it, if that. No spacing requirements for the Cypress, leave them as they might be growing, except when damaged by a pine falling, a not too uncommon occurrence.

I think it's fair to say that climbing is not an option, given the time factor that OM mentions. Most of the hung up ones go over before getting too vertical, little concern for your safety, but it's the ones that persist and get nearly vertical and still won't tumble, that get challenging. Yeah, it does creep you on your toes. Size, 36 inch diameter butts at the stump on down.

I think the best solution is having the puller handy as an option, as Jerry suggests. It's light enough to keep in a backpack. Wish I could get a total price so I could pay for the one offered, I guess that Dave's computer is still down.....

Trying to develop the skill to be more directional when cutting up a hung up tree, get it to slide off the way the tendency lies, as Burnham suggests, but just cutting through the bind, is pretty much my skill level at this point. Good learning opportunities with this work, though. Taking the hung up tree down by falling another onto it, it's sometimes an option, but all kinds of lean going on, getting one to go exactly where you want is problematical, plus the clean up time that will go into a tree that might not need to be taken down otherwise.

I appreciate the suggestions on the cutting methods, etc, will be trying those out. Wanna be safe.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

I am fortunate Jay that there are two of us that work as a team on thinning jobs.. Safety and more gear can be packed in and out.
But I am with Darin on this also... I enjoy the challenge... Walking them down really keeps you on your toes and one can get real creative with a come along. Bit nerve racking sometimes.. But....
OBTW.. If you get to go look at the results over time it is a kick... It is amazing how well the other trees do when you thin them. We also have a mortality expectancy here due to snow load. Thinning does remove some support structure for each individual.

 

[woodworkingboy]

Yeah, it's kind of a spacey experience to think that what you are doing now, will have an effect when they get to harvesting, fifty or sixty years hence. Unfortunately, I won't be around.....

 

[CurSedVoyce]

You will see a notable difference in just a few years time.. Seriously.

 

[woodworkingboy]

For sure you do notice the change in light when you stop to check it out.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

I have been in groves where the thinning was done sooner for some than other trees. The trees that were thinned were at least 3-10X bigger than their peers of the same age that were not thinned. In less than 3 years.