New employee experiment

[Mick!]

I think we should nominate Chris to " Poster of the month".

Lots of well thought out eloquently written posts from him lately.

This one really hits it on the head IMO.

That is how I've always looked at my apprentices.
Treat them well, so they feel valued. Teach them all you can, and when/if they move on, at least they will remember you fondly.
.........and you are the wind beneath my wings.



Yes and the sun is always shining in happy land, rabbits hop to and fro saying "good morning Mr Squirrel! Isn't it a lovely day!" Etc.......
Nice sentiments Stig, but if I need a brash monkey for a day or two I'll go down the pub to find someone who's free (unemployed/unemployable) healthy and needs cash.
If I started telling them how valued they are and team stuff they'd piss themselves laughing.
Now I'm sure that may reflect on me or my operation but it works for me.

 

[Tucker943]

That's great logic. Crack smokers sometimes will work for cheap too. Child molesters usually come cheap too when they first get out of jail.

 

[Mick!]

Sure, just don't pay them at lunchtime!

 

[Pelorus]

Don't hire a dummy Sean. You are over simplifying what you want out of a dummy. You'll need more out of that person out of anyone on the job then just dragging and raking. Plus, guys that are content to do those tasks and nothing else, are usually capable of screwing up even those tasks. Plus, the idea of just meet you at the job and keep them away from home and shop, well, that sets the tone for how you feel about them. Sounds great, until they feel that way about you. If they arrive each day thinking they are a disposable chimp, they'll view you as a disposable prick, and that will bite you in the ass one morning when you are waiting for him to show on a big important job....

Seek good men, train them, and start over when they move on. Its the nature of the work force. Someone trained you, and you moved on. We all did.

That really resonates! You nailed it.
Great employees are rare. Great employers are even rarer.

 

[r0ck1r0ck2]

Heh.

I'm going to start saying "Good Morning Mr Squirrel" all the time.

 

[woodworkingboy]

If I started telling them how valued they are and team stuff they'd piss themselves laughing.

That response seems way off from what Chris was expressing, a drift from the subject at hand. He's describing what he feels is a good approach to having someone work for him on a regular or semi regular basis, the same person being called when needed, and what Sean is saying that he wants to have. You are talking about someone for the odd day that you might never see again, at least the way that you describe it. Nowhere did he say anything about sucking up to anybody either, there are other ways to show appreciation besides lavish compliments, probably better means to let someone know that their presence and efforts are welcomed, like within the context of the relationship over time. A good atmosphere is cool.

 

[stig]

Wouldn't work for me for the above mentioned reasons.
I don't hang out with idiots in my free time, and don't see any reason to do so at work.

I don't go about telling people how they are valued members of the team, I simply treat them in such a way that they know it.
For the same reason we don't use brush monkeys, everybody can do any part of the job, here.

A ropeman who climbs on every third job will have much more appreciation for what goes on in the tree.
Just like a climber, who drags brush, will have a better understanding of cutting and dumping stuff in such a way as to make life easier for those on the ground.

It just makes life more fun to me, doing things like that. And to be honest, I'm not in this line of work because I have to be, but because it is what I like to do.

.

 

[Joezilla11]

I like your approach stig

 

[SouthSoundTree]

Thanks, all. And Chris, you're right for a longer term employee, who is Erik.

Nobody ever has to worry about stepping on my toes, for the record.

Just thinking of ways to try to do something different with different results.

John is the guy leaving, and its okay. Its a great opportunity for him, and he may be too smart for groundwork sorta, but has worked for non-profit generating government subsidized programs or the gov't itself.

I can't work with poor Groundmen (so maybe a brush monkey instead), as I train them for safety, longevity, technical skill, professional development and training opportunities.

John was told at hire that he could earn a raise, here are the first things to learn, and here are the resources, and here's the training. He got all geeked on watching rigging videos, but still doesn't have a running bowline, bowline, sheet bend, and clove hitch down pat. He got a buck an hour raise already. I want to pay him a bunch more, as a result of him being able to produce, not trying to figure out how to tie a bowline while I'm waiting on long wobbly limbwalk for 5 minutes for a 10 second knot. .

I thought that I could leave all the technical stuff to Erik, and have a grunt that I wouldn't really worry about paying much, or expecting much out of, on occasion, and if he doesn't show up, call someone else in.

I would like an apprentice. Someone wanting to learn a trade in which to earn a living anywhere there are trees. Someone committed for some time frame.

I figure if they are a monkey, or willing to do monkey work and actually spend the resources (time, brain power) to learn, they have a definite promotion ladder.

Erik is the same way. He has the opportunity to earn a $2/ hour raise just by passing the ISA CA exam, on my dime for test, membership, CEU opportunities, gladly spent. That has been on the table for over a year, easy.

There is definitely those that are cut out to be employees forever.

Yes, Chris, there is definitely a passage of information down the line, and at the same time, I have learned most of what I know from reading, asking, experimenting, and occasionally picking up things at work from others, after my initial training. I taught my self to be a good technical rock climber the same way. I have heard before, and I'm sure I'll hear again "I want to learn a trade". Shit, if I could have someone spoon feed me lots of training, and pay me to learn it, I'd be all over that. I learned as much as I could during my time at State Parks. I need someone who wants to learn techniques that make the day easier, not someone doing double-work.

Rant over, for now.


Please advise.

 

[ClimbMIT]

Sean this is a good thread you started with lots of good feedback. My experiment this year is to have many different helpers that are sub-contractors to avoid having to provide a full time position since my advertising is limited. I don't want to take the jobs that don't pay just to keep my employee working and myself working to make the same as my employee! Having many different helpers is stressful when scheduling work to say the least but has been effective for my small outfit. From a safety standpoint this is not good due to minimal training.

Stig, I really like your respect for your apprentices. Having each employee trained to do climbing, ground work, is a great way for employees to become better at what they do having experienced it for themselves. Yes we may train them and they may go out on their own. What we give comes back to us is what I believe. Having good relations with ex employees, other tree companies, and other agricultural companies we can all benefit from.

 

[Tucker943]

Sean, I get your drift. I was trying to suggest maybe not giving the highly impersonal feel of keeping them away from home/garage. You can employ someone who is to only serve very basic tasks, but giving them a sense that they don't belong will only lead to a high turnover. You know what a nightmare that can be.....

 

[rskybiz]

Great thread Sean. Chris spot on posts a growing co. can appreciate.
Stig post of the month +1

 

[Tucker943]

Im a young company too. 9 years this year. Long 9 years though. I think I need to start drinking again.

 

[Mick!]

Here you go!

 

[SouthSoundTree]

I wouldn't outright tell them they can't come to my home. I know the problems of employee theft.



Lots of laborer responses, one experience groundie (whatever that means). Been away from email for a day, so haven't sifted too much.


If the loader feed the chuck and duck (9x16" throat), then another guy may not be needed much, except crane jobs maybe.

 

[SouthSoundTree]

On my first day in Olympia, I shoveled up dog-sh*t and cones to prep for lawn mowing, washed a roof, and sorted used marine parts, through a CL laborer ad. I wasn't above working for money. I wouldn't have done that forever, but I realize that sometimes you can find a diamond in the rough.




I wish it wasn't so hard for people to listen, comprehend, retain, and implement directions. If I say that I need the three-strand in the blue Rubbermaid in two minutes, I don't want to be ready to go and find that he brought the double braid in the blue rope bag (mind you we have comm units).

Rule one, if you aren't sure you can do it safely, DON'T.
Rule two, if you're not sure, ask.
Rule three, if you don't know why you are doing something, STOP! It will save us all time and aggravation of having to wait to undo doing it wrong, then re-do it right. Last example of this was groundie disassembling the controlled speedline set-up (Me: 'Why did you just dismantle the CSL trolley, etc? HIM:"It seems right at the time." Me: "Can you set it back up?" Him: basically, no. "Me: okay send it all back up and I'll set it back up").

I continue to emphasize that it will be soooo much less work for everyone for them to become technically skilled rather than work so hard. If they can tie basic knots and 'Simple 3:1' with the Porty (trained on the job, and paid to practice at home), I can focus on doing things that make life easier, like setting up for effective speedlining to the chipper, rather than dump into a pile downhill of the chipper.

I consider training a guy, and telling him he can't work tomorrow unless he can come back tomorrow tying knot 'x', after paid time offsite to ingrain it.

How many times does it take to tie a clove hitch before it becomes muscle memory? I have a way that is sooooo simple and easy that doesn't really allow you to move your arms/ hands the wrong way that is faster to whip out (not clipping too) that you can say Clove Hitch.

Bowline actually takes a little longer to tie than say, like half a second. I get frustrated waiting for two minutes for a 2 second knot, especially if I can't trust it.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I've tried paying them to learn the bowline - no takers yet!

 

[FireFighterZero]

They told us that we should be able to tie a bowline around ourselves in full turn out gear, gloves, and in complete darkness in case we fall through a burning floor. I can do it FAST. But I guess you cant tell a ground man to learn how to do that if there is no threat of burning alive!

Not even paying them to do it Butch? Wow.

 

[canadianclimber]

Great Thread. Always like the posts that relate to making work easier.

I'm a small company and don't have enough work to employ multiple workers. I don't really want that at this point anyways. I hove one go to guy who can do it all. When big jobs come along and we need a "brush monkey" there is a pretty go day labour service in town. Usually get some decent people from there and then I have no paperwork etc to deal with. As well I have a pretty good relationship with a few of the landscapers in town that I can use one of their employees when I need. Again they just bill me and no employee paperwork needed. Helps them out as well if they are slow for work.

It's nice not having any commitment to find jobs to keep staff working. I keep my one guy busy enough to be happy.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Not even paying them to do it Butch? Wow.

Oh, many of them said "Sure!" I'd show them how to tie it and 1 in 5 would halfway master it... I'd tell them to practice it all night while chilling at home. The next time I'd see them I'd ask for them to tie the knot.

No one ever seemed to remember how.

 

[Mick!]

My last climber was like that. As soon as he drove away in the evening he never gave a seconds thought to the job.
I don't want to come on all, "in my day" but when I was new to the game I had a 5ft piece of thick string and I'd practice my knots whilst watching the Telly.

 

[stig]

When I start a new apprentice up, he gets a piece of rope and a list of knots to master.
Then we tell him that untill he can tie those knots blindfolded, there will be no climbing for him.
That works like a charm.

 

[Mick!]

When I start a new apprentice up, he gets a piece of rope and a list of knots to master.
Then we tell him that untill he can tie those knots blindfolded, there will be no climbing for him.
That works like a charm.

Not a bad idea.
Edit
Tbh it would not have worked with this muppet though, I would have ended up doing all the climbing myself, which I did after I got rid of him anyway

 

[RopeArmour]

put a fairly clean piece of garbage or tooney in the path taken to the office/shop or whatever that the apprentice
is told to go for the interview if he/she picks up the garbage and mentions the money, you got a keeper.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

On worrying about bringing your employees home.. You just set obvious targets marked 50 yards, 75 yards, 100 yards etc and add bullet holes. Make sure they can be seen on the driveway. and from the house or shop. Nough said