getting started in (light) rigging

[Spellfeller]

Hi, all:

As predicted, I'm looking for advice on how to spend the first dollars on rigging gear, after the stuff I already have:

• a Maasdam puller
• 6’ Tuflex round sling LINK
• 150' of 1/2" Samson Pro-Master 3-strand

These have been super helpful for felling a ton of diseased beech at my MIL's in Western NC, but now I'm thinking about about rigging out the tops of a few trees in tighter quarters, so I can fell the spars.

Wondering:

1. On a tree of sufficient size, can I use the Tuflex for attaching a POW?
2. Even though it's not a double braid and may twist under load, can I use the Pro-Master as my lowering line?
3. Do a loopie and something like the CMI 3/4" stainless block LINK make sense as next purchases?

Thanks for playing the next round of "Hold Hands with the Newb"!

 

[Raj]

X rigging rings would be the best bang for your buck, a big pulley will sit idle untill you have a groundie able to handle large loads.

 

[Spellfeller]

X-rigging rings look pretty great, Peter.

a big pulley will sit idle untill you have a groundie able to handle large loads.

I don't follow you here, though. Do the XRRs make large loads easier on the groundie than a POW & block? How?

 

[Raj]

The bigger the cut up in the tree the better the groundie has to be, right amount of wraps on the porty, smooth control, being able to run the cut down, able to get the cut on the ground safely, flat, able to cut it up but not your climb or rigging line. Not send you and/or rigging point swaying around. Just my two cents.

 

[Sgriff]

Yes you can use tuflex sling for pow,the less slack in your pow attachment point the better.

Yes 3 strand can be used for rigging.

I absolutely love loopies,cheap and easy.

The size of that pulley is overkill,as is the weight,but to each their own,it will do the job no doubt but i would spend the $ and get an aluminum 5/8 isc spring pin block.

I personally am not of fan of low friction rings. No comparison to a pulley.

 

[Sgriff]

Metal components get a safety factor of 5/1 as a working load limit and rope components get a 10/1 working load limit, there are dynamic forces to consider that become more critical while negative rigging. In case you didn't know😁

 

[Sgriff]

I love this 1/2" pulley but its obviously limited to that diameter
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=14576

 

[CurSedVoyce]

First block I bought was the Stainless Steel 5/8ths CMI. I now have 2. Take a beating.. No worries. Kinda heavy, but if you go big later on, no worries. Now for light rigging I have been using the Pinto Rig on a 3/8ths loopie. It will handle up to 5/8ths rope. Love it. Light and strong. I can even throw some weight at it considering it is rated at 10kn WLL (2250 #). If you put a 1/2 loopie or sling to it.. you have a very versatile piece of kit.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

Your rope alone can do a lot.

Basic natural crotch rigging. No worry about damaging the tree as it's a removal.

For light duty rigging, I've been known to use the standing end of the rigging rope to anchor a POW or rope puller.

 

[Spellfeller]

Thanks a ton, guys. Please keep the suggestions coming!

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

You can use a munter hitch for lightweight rigging, in a pinch, and cheap nylon slings for zip lines and two slings clipped together, and girth hitched on either side of the cut, to hang pieces. Then disconnect and throw, or dice it up, hanging.

 

[Raj]

I love this 1/2" pulley but its obviously limited to that diameter
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=14576

I love the mini block, I'm climbing nearly 4 times a week now and it pretty much goes up with me everytime in the city.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

How big/ heavy of pieces do you plan to rig with your gear, at this point? Negative blocking (dropping and catching, or more of an overhead rigging point?

 

[Limbrat]

Jeff, it was well said about your ground help being skilled with the ropes and porty. I took a decent top out of a tall skinny pine a couple of days ago and explained to my ground guy who is actually a pretty experienced rope man that I needed it to run and just slow it down a bit before it hit the ground. He let it fall about twenty feet and caught it. Not good for me. All of the horses and bulls I rode as a teen were pretty tame in comparison. I still have no idea what he was thinking. I didn't say anything for a few minutes, didn't have to, he knew he screwed up. Other than a skinned elbow I was okay but it could've been a lot worse.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

Ray, did he reiterated the plan to you, or just say 'okay'.

I say " crash land the tips, control the butt". They repeat or reiterate the plan. To easy for a groundie to hurt the climber with rigging. Another reason I like speedlining.

I try to ask my guys what I could have said differently to be more clear regarding something that was miscommunicated. Sometimes, even then, their explanation leaves me wondering what they were thinking. It just makes me remember how much easier it is to misunderstand sometimes than clearly understand 100% in critical situations.

 

[Limbrat]

He didn't repeat it back to me Sean, but he assured me that he understood. I like speed lining too, or rigging off another tree if it's close enough. We have three more similar pines to remove for the same customer and that's the plan. The only downside to rigging off another tree is having to use a haul back line and if you're not removing that tree as well, it can get beat up.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

So do you figure that it was an accident that he stopped it, like a hockle in the rope in the lowering device or such?

I have a feeling that too many times things go okay too much because of luck.

Groundwork is hard, and tiring, on a production basis. Easy to have a brain fart, especially "figuring" what is wanted, as in "I figured...". I don't like them 'figuring', I like them listening and doing what the much more experienced part of the team tells them to do.

Figuring is right up there with "wanting to help". Working the plan and doing what they are told, is helping me, personally. Recently, a sub and his groundie were helping me and my former employee (couldn't listen, hear, understand, and do, rather wanted to 'figure'). I was rigging out a good piece when the groundie comes and grabs the rope behind his boss. I asked him what the frig he was doing. You don't have two people on the brakes when driving. That's what a POW is for. He "figured" he should make independent decisions to "help" by getting his feet on the "brake pedal".

Same job, the sub "figured" he should help me pull over a spar with the loader (which I pretensioned), by coming over to the work area, from where I told them all to chill out, and starting to talk to me, mid operation..."Do you want me to do this and that?" His employee starts coming over 'figuring' its time to 'help'. I told them that if I wanted something, like all the rest of the day, I'd start with "Robert?", wait for a response so I have his attention, then "would you please come do x, y, z?" They wanted to get three people involved in a one-man operation (man and "trained Ogre").

My point, not making it to you, Ray, more to SF and new riggers, getting other people involved in your safety is a danger that rigging often requires. Don't trust that your groundie 'gets it'. "Okay" as a response means, "Okay, some words came out of your mouth" which may or may not have been understood.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

A man can not have enough loop runners.......

 

[stig]

True dat.

 

[Mick!]

Almost certainly just me but...
I don't think this sort of thing should be attempted after asking the advice of some guys on the Internet.

 

[Spellfeller]

Almost certainly just me but...
I don't think this sort of thing should be attempted after asking the advice of some guys on the Internet.

Not just you, me too, Nick!

I completely agree.

I'm trying to gain an understanding of simple rigging through 1) reading the main instructional texts in the industry, 2) watching videos of people who know what they are doing, 3) picking the brains of the folks at TreeStuff every time I walk in there, 4) arranging to work with a local TreeHouser who has VERY kindly offered to be a mentor of sorts, AND 5) "asking the advice of some guys on the Internet."

So really, much as I admire and respect you all, you're only 20% of the hotness!

 

[Spellfeller]

Yes you can use tuflex sling for pow,the less slack in your pow attachment point the better.

Yes 3 strand can be used for rigging.

I absolutely love loopies,cheap and easy.

The size of that pulley is overkill,as is the weight,but to each their own,it will do the job no doubt but i would spend the $ and get an aluminum 5/8 isc spring pin block.

I personally am not of fan of low friction rings. No comparison to a pulley.

I love this 1/2" pulley but its obviously limited to that diameter
http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=14576

Thanks, Grif. Super helpful. Lots of folks seem VERY happy with the ISC spring pin blocks...

First block I bought was the Stainless Steel 5/8ths CMI. I now have 2. Take a beating.. No worries. Kinda heavy, but if you go big later on, no worries. Now for light rigging I have been using the Pinto Rig on a 3/8ths loopie. It will handle up to 5/8ths rope. Love it. Light and strong. I can even throw some weight at it considering it is rated at 10kn WLL (2250 #). If you put a 1/2 loopie or sling to it.. you have a very versatile piece of kit.

Thanks, Stephen. I've heard great things about both the 2.2# 5/8ths block from CMI AND the Pinto Pulley you mention.

Your rope alone can do a lot.

Basic natural crotch rigging. No worry about damaging the tree as it's a removal.

For light duty rigging, I've been known to use the standing end of the rigging rope to anchor a POW or rope puller.

You can use a munter hitch for lightweight rigging, in a pinch, and cheap nylon slings for zip lines and two slings clipped together, and girth hitched on either side of the cut, to hang pieces. Then disconnect and throw, or dice it up, hanging.

How big/ heavy of pieces do you plan to rig with your gear, at this point? Negative blocking (dropping and catching, or more of an overhead rigging point?

Lots of great tips here, Sean. Thanks. High anchor at first.

Jeff, it was well said about your ground help being skilled with the ropes and porty. I took a decent top out of a tall skinny pine a couple of days ago and explained to my ground guy who is actually a pretty experienced rope man that I needed it to run and just slow it down a bit before it hit the ground. He let it fall about twenty feet and caught it. Not good for me. All of the horses and bulls I rode as a teen were pretty tame in comparison. I still have no idea what he was thinking. I didn't say anything for a few minutes, didn't have to, he knew he screwed up. Other than a skinned elbow I was okay but it could've been a lot worse.

Glad you're safe, Ray! I hear you on the skills needed in a good groundie. I think it's safe to say, I have to learn to be one myself, before I try to teach anyone else!

My point, ... to SF and new riggers, getting other people involved in your safety is a danger that rigging often requires. Don't trust that your groundie 'gets it'. "Okay" as a response means, "Okay, some words came out of your mouth" which may or may not have been understood.

Really important perspective, Sean. As in my reply to Ray, I need to learn from someone with experience. I would never want to ask my amateur groundie to do something I didn't understand myself first. That would be unsafe for everyone involved!

A man can not have enough loop runners.......

Words to live by, Stephen!

 

[CurSedVoyce]

You really should not ever ignore natural crotch rigging and keeping it simple in the beginning (as pointed to by Sean). You get a good feeling how friction and rope play together. Sometimes it is just faster. Can be a tad rough on the rope species dependant.
Here is a vid I posted in the tree felling thread. Self lowering to Katy for some and letting her have the rope when I had to be further out.
The rope through the biner on my D is just to keep the tail close for lowering.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/A7AEHKN-wvw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[stig]

Almost certainly just me but...
I don't think this sort of thing should be attempted after asking the advice of some guys on the Internet.

When I started out there was no-one to teach that stuff.
So I just muddled through on my own. T'was luck and nothing else that kept me from getting maimed or worse.
Internet advice is better than that, as long as you stay away from the dubious "xeperts" like ol' murph.
Asking folks here pretty much guaranties that you'll not be led astray.

 

[Spellfeller]

Here is a vid I posted in the tree felling thread.

Stephen, I watched this, fascinated, in the Felling forum before you reposted it here. So cool.

Obviously, I've read about NCR, and watched a few vids ONE EXAMPLE, but yours is so helpful in that it shows the technique's repeated use in an application far closer to what I'm likely to tackle.

Am I right that all you're using here is a steel biner and the bull rope? Limbs this size are being controlled only by the friction of the rope through the crotch and your hand, right?