Beginner Fun with Stumps -- and more

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rfwoody

rfwoody

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=> Cut a couple of ~4' stumps Saturday.

=> Had first try at using a stump grinder -- I think I'm an expert now.

=> Had first serious/confident attempt at hand filing the 25" chain on my ms461.

(why didn't you just put this in the "What did you do today?" thread ? .... I was hoping I'd get more comments if I created its own thread)

big_stump_20181229_131655_resized.jpg
>>> finally took 2 of us to roll stumps off stump

big_stump_20181229_144751_1546261835384_resized.jpg
>>> ms660 w/ 36" bar
>>> I was proud of my level cut ... at least this time -- I was aware of orientation of bar on 2 axis and effect of "pushing" torque on bar. (per Mr. Beranek)

stump_grinder_20181229_155906_resized.jpg
>>> seems pretty easy to use... but if I was using it for real I would put a barrier in front of it.

This was at my friend's house down the street who had the Pecan tree.
These 2 big stumps were from the 2 Oak removals I had declined to bid on several months ago.

Never cut off stumps this big before.
The ms660 with 36" bar cut through the stumps a lot easier than I thought it would.
Chain was still pretty new... never sharpened.

> Stump grinder doesn't appear to be rocket science. :)
My friend rented it from Home Depot for 24 hours for ~$300
I had to leave right after I took this picture of grinding on one of these 4' stumps...
but I estimate it took 1.5 or 2 hours to grind it down (need to ask him).

I tried hand filing (no guides) the 25" chain on my ms461 ..... it wasn't a total disaster, but wasn't too good.
I got medium "chips" when cross-cutting......... but it would NOT cut through the root flairs on the stumps.
All I got was fine sawdust when tried to cut through root flairs. --- used a smaller saw instead

Remembered Mr. Burnham's words about hand filing (to the effect) -- "the more I did it the better I got"
... maybe I didn't "get the gullet" enough.

thanks for looking at this and for all/any comments!
 
Looks like a neat machine, but can you see what you're grinding with the controls all the way in the back?
Curious about the performance of hydraulic driven wheel as opposed to belts... I don't see how it could be faster but I'm no expert.
 
Hydraulic driven cutter wheel does loose some power, Carl says 20 to 25 percent if I recall correctly. The nice thing about it is any wheel stalls in the cut are not endangering belt slippage and thus glazing a belt. Good application of hydraulic power if you have a strong enough engine and great set up for a beginner in my opinion.
 
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  • #6
Thanks all!

Didn't think about the hydraulic benefits as y'all have observed... except my friend did point out that it was all run by hydraulics --- i.e the only thing the engine part does is pump hydraulic fluid.... because it did stall out from time to time.

Thanks Nutball....
Are those sprockets different than what one might buy from Madsen's?

wow, $27 for 36" bar chain... sounds too good to be true.... are you sure it is not a (cheap) foreign knock-off?

Have never tried skip-tooth chain.... that full-chisel chain... doesn't it require a triangle file?

thanks.
 
It's legit, maybe not Stihl authorized, but it is just as durable as any Stihl chain. Great stuff, all I ever use for the most part. Actually the first Stihl chain I ever got was with a chinese Husqvarna 365 straight out of china. It stayed sharp through about 10 hickories while a Husqvarna chain lasted only 10 cuts.

The sprockets are just 8 tooth plain Oregon rims instead of 7 tooth. That's the best deal on them I know.
 
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  • #8
thanks Nutball.

So is the difference on the rims that they are 8 tooth instead of 7? .... if so, are 8 tooth rims interchangeable with a 7 tooth sprocket that came with the saw?
(not sure what I have on there now).

and if so.... what is the benefit of 8 tooth rim vs. 7?

thanks!
 
Faster chain speed.
So it cuts faster if you really know how to sharpen it.

In your case, I'd stick with the 7.

Be aware that changing up to 8 on some saws will give you a chain speed in excess of what some saw protection pants can handle.

For that reason we only let our apprentices run 7 on their 70 cc saws untill they have made it through a logging season.
By then the saws will be like an extended part of their bodies and the chance of them getting cut, minimal.

Getting through a season means having put about 1000-15000 cubic meters of hardwood on the ground, limbed and bucked.

I don't think you are quite there yet.:)
 
Good point on safety, I didn't know that about the pants. Kickback energy can be higher too with faster chain speed.

The 8t in the link is a direct replacement for the stock 7t that comes on those, and will fit both the bigger Stihls and Husqvarnas. It will allow you to get more tensioning room out of your chain too as I find a lot of new long chains tend to start off the tensioner already half way out.

It will cut faster especially in small wood (good for when you get really familiar with running the 660 and want more out of it), and it compensates a loss of cutting speed by using skip chain.
 
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  • #11
Thanks Stig and Nutball!

Safety is definitely what I try to keep in the forefront all the time.


Do y'all (or anyone) have any guidance on hand filing?

.... Burnham said something in a thread that stuck with me regarding hand filing... something to the effect... ".... but the more I did it the better I got"

I've been using the .025 (?) ... depth gauge tool that sits on 2 teeth with the slot in the middle.

But I've ordered the single tooth ones from Husquvarna (because that is what Buckin' Billy on youtube uses and he seems to know what he's talking about).

I guess you have to "get the gullet" in order for the round file to give the right amount of hook on the chain?

thanks for any feedback and/or direction to good thread(s) on hand sharpening..... (haven't searched yet).
 
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  • #13
:thumbup:

Butch, when you say a bright light.... what exactly are you looking at/for?

how long approx should a file last? ...i.e. how do you know it's too dull?

what about knowing how much to take off the depth gauges?
 
You will get the hang of the depth gauges. I don't like the guide tool thing. For you, I wouldn't worry about the depth gauges except for every 3-5 filings, or 1 filing if the teeth got tore up by rocks. Otherwise you just get a feel for when you have to lean harder to get it to cut, and if it still doesn't cut much faster or slow the engine as much as it used to, then you know to give it a stroke or two with the file. I prefer to pull the depth gauge file across from the inside of the tooth to the outside with light pressure. One hand pulling, and one hand just simply keeping the flat file steady.

I'm still finding different ways I prefer to round file the teeth. I like using an angle guide, but I don't like the newer ones because I can't see the cutting edge of the tooth against the file to keep track of the angle as easily as I used to on older guides, so now I've just been freehanding it as of a few weeks ago. You can really about use up one file filing a very dull (not torn up by rocks dull) non skip 36" chain. It depends on brand some too. I'd say I'll get about 3 good sharpenings out of a file on a 36" SKIP chain.
 
Make sure the chain isn't loose, and use a vice. Just a handle and file. You can remove as much or as little metal as you want, just try to make the tooth look new, but with a little deeper gullet. I file the gullet down then sharpen the cutter. I hold the file at both ends. Practice makes perfect. You can make them sharper than new.
Some people sharpen brand new chains.
 
Notice the angle of the file I use in relation to every tooth. That's because this way the grooves on the file hit at an angle and cut the metal smoothly like a milling bit. The other way would make the file teeth hit straight on, and it doesn't cut very well or smoothly.

The last one seemed hard. You may run into a hard tooth every once in a while. The file just doesn't want to dig into the metal, and can actually be damaged by the hard tooth. Luckily this depth gauge wasn't too hard, but it did mark up my file.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/hwmCoAJvWyM" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
Good beta on that file angle...on an acute angle to the bar, not perpendicular.



The rakers are noticeably tilted left and right. The file-to-raker angle is important for good cutting.



Stihl chain is harder and needs harder files than Oregon, some others (possibly all others). I buy Stihl, and have run Oregon when I worked for the man.
 
The reason you are getting dust when cutting root flares is that for the most part you are cutting straight down the grain.
Crosscutting across the grain gives you chips
Cutting along the length of the grain gives you 'noodles'

So if your chain is reasonably sharp, even and depth gauges ok, and you are getting good chunky chips when crosscutting, don't worry about the dusty cut when cutting the flares...it's just the orientation of the grain.
 
MasterBlaster said:
A bright light, sharp file and lots of practice. That's about it.
Click to expand...

And with enough practice, you don't even need the light.

I probably filed for quite q while before realizing that my eye sight had gotten so bad, I needed glasses to see the teeth.

On that note, I recommend to new apprentices that they get a pair of cheap glasses in something like +1 to use for filing.

Makes it easier for them to see details and keeps them from getting metal in their eyes when they file on a windy day.

We always file on site.
 
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  • #20
Thanks a lot, All.

Nutball, I've used the "standard" filing guides... then I thought the (e.g.) Stihl 2-in-1 file guides were perfect... then as it finally dawned on me and (as Jonny said/implied), one can get a lot sharper chain by hand filing without a guide ----------- i wonder if you filed out the gullet by hand and THEN used the guide if that would be better?

Jonny, that is what has dawned on me.. I think.. about the relationship of the gullet to the tooth... i.e. that if the gullet is too high/full then the file cannot get into the tooth to get the correct hook on it... right?

Nutball, that concept is totally new to me.....I was going to ask how you knew which side of the chain went with which angle.... since on one side you go in the direction of the tooth angle, but on the other side you go opposite.... but maybe Sean addressed that(?) .... cool Jar Jets by the way.... never seen these before.

Sean, so are you saying it is obvious which way the rakers are tilted, which direction to angle the flat file? ... per my observation above?

All my chain is Oregon chain... that is what I got started on and it seems they have more literature, etc. describing their chain, etc....... but Stihl seems to be much preferred by some because of it's hardness...... maybe it is the tradeoff in all "cutlery" of holding an edge vs. ease of sharpening?

Bermy, thanks a lot.... that is what I am understanding... the 3 cutting orientations and how different they are.
But my .325 chain did cut through those flairs pretty ok.... could that be because the thinner chain is better at cutting straight down the grain? (or no).

Stig, thanks, as I've gotten older I have become a lot less cavalier with my eye (and ear) safety. Think I will go with the (maybe) 2+ glasses and bright light. -- also..following with interest your ongoing treatment as I see it posted here, as with Butch's
 
The bright light is for seeing accurately what's going on. Gessing the sharpness by touching with the finger's tip isn't enougth. The finger can tell you that there is an edge or a burr, but he can't see the very little remaining flat at the front and/or the slightly rounded area on the top. The eyes can, at least with glass for me, if you try to catch a light ray on these tinny surfaces. If you see something, a small reflect, you have to file more. If you can't see anything on and just near the edge, no matter the chain's position in the light, you are good to go.

A good strocke with a new file takes out about 0,1 mm of steel (0.004"). You feel the file biting the metal, with a "crrrriiiiss" sound. You have to put some force on it in the length but not so much sideway.
If the file is dull, it's more like " swwwwiiiip". It doesn't oppose you much force to push it, but you need a strong sideway force to get some shavings. If the file looks shiny and smooth under the fingers, the teeth are worn out.
If you find a hard tooth, a chock hardened edge or a rolled edge, the metal is too hard for the file. It just slides over and you can't get any shaving. You can eventually get through it by pushing heavily on the file's side, but the cutting edges of the files are now destroyed.

If you came to bend the file's handle or just brocke it, it's a good clue too that your file is (was) worn out.
An other clue : the dull file gives a thick burr and filling more doesn't improove the sharpness.
 
Nothing wrong with using a file guide until you get some experience.

I use a magic marker to mark the tooth I started with... that way I can zip along w/o worrying about stopping and looking.
 
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  • #25
Thanks Sean, yeah, I've looked at that a lot..... need to go back and see what makes sense to me NOW after a little more experience.
.... yeah, the lighted magnifyer... I have one like that in my office hooked to my desk... need to get one for the shop.

Thanks a lot Marc... I think I can relate to the "crrrriiiiss" and "swwwwiiiip" sounds and feels.

yeah Butch, me too, magic marker to mark first tooth!
 
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