Treeaddict
Treehouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #26
That’s a good question. I’ll speculate Akimbo is worse but anxious to see what the folks in the know have to say
Akimbo on Hyperclimb
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CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
Pitch is hateful no matter what IMHO. Adapt, overcome, finish the task, move on.
Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
I've been stuck on both. With a hitch chord, you can always release the load on it, work it loose to lessen the grip and set it again some inches under, reload and see if it's better. Repeat.
With the Akimbo, it's hard to pass the pitch spot, really hard. The upper came is like glued and jammed againdt the rope. You have to shear the pitch layer along the contact surface all at once to move the rope. As the came tightens when loaded, the more you push down, the more it holds. It can take all your weight on the fully collapsed Akimbo to make it move, difficultly. Forget about that in ddrt. You can't loose the cam manualy, because there isn't any access to it. The only way to loosen it, beside brute force, is to go up again a tad. Turn the rope to find a less pitched area on the circonference and try to go down again. Rubbing some bark crap on the pitch's spot may help to pass it. I recall a cedrus with some big globs of pitch. Of course I set my rope right over one. The deadwooding became quickly harder as the pitch spreaded by the friction. By the time I had finished, the rope was seriously englued and it took me an awfully long time to come back to the ground.
With the Akimbo, it's hard to pass the pitch spot, really hard. The upper came is like glued and jammed againdt the rope. You have to shear the pitch layer along the contact surface all at once to move the rope. As the came tightens when loaded, the more you push down, the more it holds. It can take all your weight on the fully collapsed Akimbo to make it move, difficultly. Forget about that in ddrt. You can't loose the cam manualy, because there isn't any access to it. The only way to loosen it, beside brute force, is to go up again a tad. Turn the rope to find a less pitched area on the circonference and try to go down again. Rubbing some bark crap on the pitch's spot may help to pass it. I recall a cedrus with some big globs of pitch. Of course I set my rope right over one. The deadwooding became quickly harder as the pitch spreaded by the friction. By the time I had finished, the rope was seriously englued and it took me an awfully long time to come back to the ground.
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
No such thing as worse. Pitch sucks. It will just as easy lock a hitch as it will a mech.
Sometimes it is "easier" to loosen the hitch to release than an mech. Until you hit the next bit of pitch. Folly to even get into that conversation.
Pitch sucks period. Embrace the suck, finish the job, collect and cash the check.
Always keep in mind a self rescue and what it will take to get down. Be prepared.
When friction is required for a system, whether it is climb system or rigging system; pitch will mess up the friction by adding too much.
This would include a porty, a HOBBS, a KK, a fixed bollard, a ring, a GRCS...
Sometimes it is "easier" to loosen the hitch to release than an mech. Until you hit the next bit of pitch. Folly to even get into that conversation.
Pitch sucks period. Embrace the suck, finish the job, collect and cash the check.
Always keep in mind a self rescue and what it will take to get down. Be prepared.
When friction is required for a system, whether it is climb system or rigging system; pitch will mess up the friction by adding too much.
This would include a porty, a HOBBS, a KK, a fixed bollard, a ring, a GRCS...
Mesquite
Treehouser
Not to side track the thread to much but i think the record needs to be set, In reference to the webinar that the samson "engineer" saying "fuel" is okay on ropes, in the most recent webinar with samson, they said was that it is not okay to put fuel on your ropes.
What was said was to use diesel to clean pitch offrope.
The guy who said it was the head of R n D, Greg in this video it's at 1 hour 4 minutes and 30 seconds. If you time it is very interesting to watch the whole thing if your into rope.
In this video Greg is not in it and this is where they say to not put deisel on your rope. At min 15 and 30 second. Once again this was an interesting video if you are into that kind of thing.
What was said was to use diesel to clean pitch offrope.
The guy who said it was the head of R n D, Greg in this video it's at 1 hour 4 minutes and 30 seconds. If you time it is very interesting to watch the whole thing if your into rope.
In this video Greg is not in it and this is where they say to not put deisel on your rope. At min 15 and 30 second. Once again this was an interesting video if you are into that kind of thing.
Pitch is the worst because as you get further into your work and more tired out, more pitch accumulates and makes everything harder to do exactly when you're running out of energy - because the pitch -sapped- your energy. Budda-bump splash. 
edit - the first video is nerd heaven. noted the log drop calculator roughed in at 10 G's, not 5 G's but is probably based on their pure test drop rig data. The fellow commented that their real log drops were lower forces.
edit - the first video is nerd heaven. noted the log drop calculator roughed in at 10 G's, not 5 G's but is probably based on their pure test drop rig data. The fellow commented that their real log drops were lower forces.
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CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
Best way to mitigate pitch is working SRT.
Less rope in front of you and less in the tree. One leg. It still happens. But less. If you are taking down a conifer, way less rope contacting the tree. In a prune more. Best I can describe it. Pitch will have a tendency to be in the first three feet of the working end because I cinch the rope to a branch above me or to the stem itself as I progress. Unless you are dragging your tail across weeping boles you've cut on your way up.
I've had more problems with pitch climbing more ddrt than SRT. Just my 2 bits.
Less rope in front of you and less in the tree. One leg. It still happens. But less. If you are taking down a conifer, way less rope contacting the tree. In a prune more. Best I can describe it. Pitch will have a tendency to be in the first three feet of the working end because I cinch the rope to a branch above me or to the stem itself as I progress. Unless you are dragging your tail across weeping boles you've cut on your way up.
I've had more problems with pitch climbing more ddrt than SRT. Just my 2 bits.
Burnham
Woods walker
This is one of those situations where old school spurs and alternating two fliplines for ascent has an advantage. No rope and no hitch or mechanical device mean far less trouble with pitch.
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Softwoods, but not commonly pitch, much.
Treeaddict
Treehouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #36
So, now I’m curious. Which trees produce the most pitch? Is it much worse in the late spring, summer, and early fall. We have softwoods but I’ve mostly worked on hardwoods. A Norway spruce seemed pretty clean. Eastern white pine gave me some trouble
Out this way I'd say white pine. I always joked that you only had to walk near one to get sticky, but damned if I wasn't on a job last year where I was checking out the trees while getting ready to do perc tests, and got sticky fingers after walking under a white pine. I touched nothing on the tree!
Burnham
Woods walker
Western white pine is one of the most pitchy, out my way in Oregon. But Doug fir and Noble fir are no slouches either.
Silver fir is bad, with pockets of pitch in the bark of the younger part of the tree...look rather like blisters. Easy to break open on contact and release their load of sap. Noble has these too, but not nearly so much so.
Grey pine has a reputation, as well.
Silver fir is bad, with pockets of pitch in the bark of the younger part of the tree...look rather like blisters. Easy to break open on contact and release their load of sap. Noble has these too, but not nearly so much so.
Grey pine has a reputation, as well.
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
I would Imagine a black pine would be like a grey. Ive climbed some cedars that will muck it up. White pine, sugar pine, white fir (piss fir?), Monterey, Scots, Italian stone. One particular Cypress comes to mind. My god that was a sticky mess. Sargents cypress I believe. We had to pressure wash the entire work zone and chipping area for the mess of it. Your feet would stick to the sidewalk. And we had to rig the whole mess down.
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Jonny
Treehouser
Blue spruce is common around here, and is pretty pitchy. Eastern white pine isn’t great either. I dislike our white pines more for their brittleness and weak branch attachment.
They can be very pretty though, usually very symmetrical, and pleasing to the eye.
I’m just glad I’m usually not using a real TIP and climbing system on most of our conifers here. The pitchy sappy mess can usually be contained to a lanyard or two, and maybe a few feet of the end of a climb line. Spruce and pine work to me usually means spurs and lanyard and the climb line is just for bailing out and for someone to send me up other gear if needed.
I’m a big fan of keeping a separate lanyard or two with Gibbs ascender or similar rope grab, just for pitchy, sappy stuff.
They can be very pretty though, usually very symmetrical, and pleasing to the eye.
I’m just glad I’m usually not using a real TIP and climbing system on most of our conifers here. The pitchy sappy mess can usually be contained to a lanyard or two, and maybe a few feet of the end of a climb line. Spruce and pine work to me usually means spurs and lanyard and the climb line is just for bailing out and for someone to send me up other gear if needed.
I’m a big fan of keeping a separate lanyard or two with Gibbs ascender or similar rope grab, just for pitchy, sappy stuff.
Treeaddict
Treehouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #41
Do you add time to a bid based on quantity of pitch? Seems like you’d almost have to.
Jonny
Treehouser
I’ve never adjusted price for that before, it shouldn’t add much time to the job. But hey if it’s your gig, you can bump your number up a bit without having to explain it to anyone. I’ve given quotes based more off of the job being a pain in the ass than based on hours it’d take to complete it. I avoid talking with customers about what the business needs to make per hour to survive. Maybe, for example, we aim for 400$ an hour to have a crew of 3 with the usual tools, but I still might quote 900$ on a 1 hour job, and there could be plenty of reasons. Manicured lawns and pain in the ass neighbors, and calling me to trim the tree a week AFTER a new vinyl fence got installed under it, and massive piles of Rottweiler poop, and tiny city post stamp backyards with narrow or nonexistent driveways. You can and probably should adjust your price to include all the stuff that’s a pain in the ass, and keep that info a company trade secret or something. I’ve heard stories of young tree businesses sharing that minimum number they need to make to stay afloat, only to have a customer bitching and trying to get a lower price after the work is completed. If the crew bust their asses and knock out a 5 hour job in 3 hours, that should never mean it costs less, but these are the conversations you can look forward to if you share your bottom line with all your clients.
So, “ do you add time to a job based on quantity of pitch ?” Not explicitly for me. As far as the customer knows, no. But it might play into a quote, sure.
If I knew I’d be doing a bit of up and down and limb walking and rigging everything on a pitchy conifer, I’d probably select one of my older 16 strand lines and run a taughtline or Blake’s on it. Some incidental contact with pitch will make for a few spots where I’m fighting the hitch to release a little, but it shouldn’t seize up and leave you stuck and add significant time to the job. It’s not hard to avoid the big globs of the stuff. Try to move quickly after cuts and gaff wounds are made. I think it often takes a few minutes after a wound is made before the sticky really starts flowing. If you’re chunking down the spar on the way back down, make an attempt to avoid the wounds.
So, “ do you add time to a job based on quantity of pitch ?” Not explicitly for me. As far as the customer knows, no. But it might play into a quote, sure.
If I knew I’d be doing a bit of up and down and limb walking and rigging everything on a pitchy conifer, I’d probably select one of my older 16 strand lines and run a taughtline or Blake’s on it. Some incidental contact with pitch will make for a few spots where I’m fighting the hitch to release a little, but it shouldn’t seize up and leave you stuck and add significant time to the job. It’s not hard to avoid the big globs of the stuff. Try to move quickly after cuts and gaff wounds are made. I think it often takes a few minutes after a wound is made before the sticky really starts flowing. If you’re chunking down the spar on the way back down, make an attempt to avoid the wounds.
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Grand fir...pitch blisters!
BeerGeek
Tree Numbnutz
Eastern White Pine bad, Scotch pine, the absolute worst! (pitch wise, at least; see my previous rantings).
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
Oooooops. Forgot Coulter, Bugger of a thing with VERY large spiney cones that also include much sap. Long sweeping branches. I think the cones get bigger than the gray. Also large and spiney. And sappy. We had a rock go through the chipper once stuck in a cone on a branch working on a tree on gravel. Sticky nasty messy.
Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
the trees naturaly very pitchy aren't alone to put you in trouble. For example, the cedrus is one of the less pitchy tree in the coniferals. You don't find pitch in the wood like a pine or a spruce, so the cuts stay clean during all the job. He knows very well how to fabricate the pitch tough, but he uses it only as a delayed response when he's wounded, like a broken limb or the attack of boring bugs. Then the pitch flows on the bark.
The old pitch has lost almost all is turpentine and is nearly solid, brittle and becomes a nuisance only when its dust is melted by the friction. Like the collophane for the violine. (because it is that, actually). You get a little more drag but it's about it. The brand new pitch is like honey. You will spread it everywhere. If you have it on a hand, garanty that your rope will get it too, even if you're especially cautious.
A way to avoid a good part of the trouble is working in the pitchy trees when it's frozen, if you have the choice. In the cold, the pitch is more viscous and way less sticky. A little care in the positionning and it's doable, mostly. .But a nice blue sky isn't your friend because as soon as the sun thaws the bark, usually in the middle of the morning, you falls in trouble. So planing your climb accordingly can help.
The old pitch has lost almost all is turpentine and is nearly solid, brittle and becomes a nuisance only when its dust is melted by the friction. Like the collophane for the violine. (because it is that, actually). You get a little more drag but it's about it. The brand new pitch is like honey. You will spread it everywhere. If you have it on a hand, garanty that your rope will get it too, even if you're especially cautious.
A way to avoid a good part of the trouble is working in the pitchy trees when it's frozen, if you have the choice. In the cold, the pitch is more viscous and way less sticky. A little care in the positionning and it's doable, mostly. .But a nice blue sky isn't your friend because as soon as the sun thaws the bark, usually in the middle of the morning, you falls in trouble. So planing your climb accordingly can help.
Burnham
Woods walker
Not impossible...I assure you. But very sticky.
Treeaddict
Treehouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #50
What is conepicking?
