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what do you think of this cut?

murphy4trees

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In the case of an usual limb (not a rigged limb, nor a well balanced free standing axis), the bottom is compressed and the top is stretched. In between, the fibers are less and less stressed as long as you progress toward the middle. Until a point (line actually) where the constrain falls to zero and then inverts to the other category.
Cutting fibers at the top or at the bottom only reduces the actual thickness of the layer of working fibers, but you find always the three areas previously cited, top stretched, middle quite and bottom compressed (its a continuous gradient actually). The global load stays the same, but less and less fibers are here to hold it, so locally the stress on the fibers increases dramatically, the maximum being at the outer fibers top/bottom. Top increases its stretch, bottom increases its compression, no matter where you cut. The zero line lives the middle of the limb to stay in the middle of the remaining layer of fibers. You can't suppress a category by cutting, it's only a progressive reallocation of the roles, driven by the quantity of survival fibers.
Yep. well put.. the same can be said of any hinge when side lean is involved. And you'll see a group of fibers that stand higher than the rest in many hinges. These fibers are thought to have held the best. They are actually at the mid-point between tension and compression. In a balanced tree, they tower-up right in the middle of the hinge. In leaners they will indicate how much lean a tree had by how close they are to the edge of the hinge.
 

gf beranek

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Murph guessed it. Overall forces are significantly reduced. Ultimately, if the limb is hanging its just the weight of the limb exerting tension. Without any added force of leverage to contend with.

Hypothetically speaking a 100 pound 30 foot long redwood limb, sticking out horizontal can exert over a thousand pounds of tension / pressure force at the crotch union. Wind blowing, and all. Modest numbers really. Same limb hanging in a rope exerts 100 pounds no matter what.

The take home is, the attitude of the limb is a direct indicator of the amount of tension and pressure forces working on it, and ultimately it's what we have to understand when cutting any limb.

Kenny could explain it much better, I'm sure.
 

theTreeSpyder

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Constantly fumbling to do so perhaps; but again i blame geometry.
.
load range = nominal(vert) to potential leverage(horiz)
nominal weight of limb= 100# (vert)
CoG @ 15'(mid point, probably more)=1500#potential leverage(horiz)
.
Starting from horizontal, are forcing hinge start strength at just under 1500#.
fold down to hang on branch or rope vertically = nominal 100# loading
>>so if fiber not all bound up on arching of limb and hinge started at 1500# - 1fiber(kinda)>>expect can hold!
.
Sliding side ways from more horizontal start strategy:
i always picture felling directly into lean or straight down from horizontal on limb
>>as feeding into harshest pull of gravity of fiercest forces
>>and felling to off side angle as not feeding directly into fiercest gravity pull(in bucking top bind i try to fold to side not to peak upward horiz of most force)
So if can, fell as side lean or pivot horizontal down sideways not feeding into harshest pull(exercise skills too)
>>also if on rigging line serving more to under rig point with horiz reach sideways etc.
or step further, soft half copter spin in free fall
.
But all in all going from weaker position holding leveraged load to nominal
>>think like when flipping something over instead of ending up with arms crossed (weaker), start crossed and uncross
>>instead of overloaded surprise at end, start weaker and know for sure can handle what is coming including motion force as move to stronger
That is what i try(ied)to extrude from horiz downward list on hinge, sometimes just kinda following slant of roof and spin/throw away when real confident in that tree..
.
In all movement, always remember speed squared, real game changer..
>>smooth and slow can help keep forces low.
 

Jed

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O.k. you guys are waaaayyyy too freakin smart fer tree guys. My head hurts trying to read you guys. I'm diggin it though. I've been in love with Mr. Beranek's, "Bender," for years. This thread has me itching to try some weird stuff. I love the Treehouse. Thank you Butch.
 

treebilly

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Jed, my brother from the other side of the country, try them in controlled situations. Please. Hoping that I’m not known as an amateur by many on here. I had a barberchair and a severe root pull today( separate trees). Dense undergrowth prevented me from foreseeing both. Hazard tree removals. Should’ve cleared more. Either way it worked out that I’m still pretty agile and if you’re gonna do stupid shit, do it in a controlled environment. Well till you “think” you have it figured out.

Thanks to everyone here. I’ve learned a ton. I knew when to get out of dodge twice today. Should’ve called it after the barber chair though. The root pull was fierce. Took out a 10” diameter tree, 8 foot away and the side I was on.


I know I’ve said it before but I need a big boy crane. I’ll get the job done safely and In a timely manner but damn am I pushing shit to the limits
 

gf beranek

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When a tree starts falling and pulls it roots out of the ground in the course.

In an absolute worse case scenario: on steep ground the roots uphill of the tree you're falling can literally take you and the ground you're standing on down the hill with the tree when the tree goes.

No joking, no kidding. Real stuff. Generally only happens with heavy leaners on steep ground, and you're slow on the backcut.

Again, real stuff. Happened to me once. I back bored the tree to prevent barberchair, but never expected it to pull it roots. The tree, me and the whole hillside above me went down hill with the tree. I was lucky, only went about 20 feet. Others, though, weren't so lucky.
 

murphy4trees

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The root pull was fierce. Took out a 10” diameter tree, 8 foot away and the side I was on.
That's some wild sheesh there. Stay in this business long enough and you're going to see some crazy things happen. the song lyrics "know when to run" come to mind here.

Hope you're reviewing the events and your thoughts (precognitions) to sharpen up that 6th sense... Glad you made it out OK. That's the kind of thing you just need to share with someone that will understand (usually not your wife). Also would recommend looking for systemic issues such as overwork that may have contributed to a less than optimal decisions.

My roommate and I play a lot of backgammon and keep score with some little money wagered. We are really close in skill levels, but I usually get the best of him. When I get overworked he runs me over. It's a dramatic turn of the tables. That has been a good lesson. Just how impaired the decision making gets from overwork.
 

MasterBlaster

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Didja sing this song, Jer?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/JAFyvePcR_o" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:lol:
 

theTreeSpyder

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Root shift from felling forces closer to trunk/stiffer roots can break pipes etc. even w/o coming out of the ground.
>>Tons of forces in felling, then more with impact of change multiplier
 

gf beranek

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It was a long day and I was tired. The last tree of the day, Butch, and I thought I had it figured out. Yeah, I got the free ride, caught by total surprise. The saw got stuck in the middle of the bore cut, wtf, the ground moving and brush up hill rising over my head, before I could react I was riding down the mountain with the works. Heavy downhill leaners on steep ground. It's a bad combo from the start, and did I mention I was tired.
 

Nutball

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It was a long day and I was tired. The last tree of the day, Butch, and I thought I had it figured out. Yeah, I got the free ride, caught by total surprise. The saw got stuck in the middle of the bore cut, wtf, the ground moving and brush up hill rising over my head, before I could react I was riding down the mountain with the works. Heavy downhill leaners on steep ground. It's a bad combo from the start, and did I mention I was tired.
I hope that's mentioned in the book, I didn't see it in the dvd. Very important to consider, I don't think I would have thought the roots might do that.
 

Tree09

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Isn't that where the coos bay really comes in handy? Or were you doomed from the start on that tree?
 

murphy4trees

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It was a long day and I was tired. The last tree of the day, Butch, and I thought I had it figured out. Yeah, I got the free ride, caught by total surprise. The saw got stuck in the middle of the bore cut, wtf, the ground moving and brush up hill rising over my head, before I could react I was riding down the mountain with the works. Heavy downhill leaners on steep ground. It's a bad combo from the start, and did I mention I was tired.
That will make you feel pretty small and helpless. Only by the grace of God and all. That's one danger that's hard to be aware of unless you've seen it happen with your own eyes. I've thought about strapping under the cut to keep the whole root system intact, but never had the need to try it. Glad you lived to tell the story!
 

SeanKroll

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A root pull can happen when you build up all that leaning-tree force on the back-strap, and the back-strap rips off the stump along the vertical grain of the wood, down strong root fibers, so the backstrap and all the attached roots, and material roots are holding onto will come over with the trunk, if it doesn't pull the ground with it.

My suspicion is that Jerry's tree was not a toothpick. About how big, Jerry, and how leaning? Had the tree moved in a storm?
 

MasterBlaster

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Did someone say root pull???

<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/YQpzwL2"><a href="//imgur.com/a/YQpzwL2">Didn’t need that lawn anyway</a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
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gf beranek

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Isn't that where the coos bay really comes in handy? Or were you doomed from the start on that tree?
The Coos's Bay might have been a better way to go for sure. But I was tired and not thinking right. Even If I left it for the first tree in the morning, when I was fresh, the outcome could have been the same.
 

theTreeSpyder

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After hurricanes and lots of water down here in Florida ground is loose and this is a bigger consideration.
Hard to calc invisible ground hold on invisible tree anchoring taking all the leveraged forces.
 
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