vertical cracks/checking = knowing when to say when?

[Spellfeller]

Hi, all:

Spent the afternoon deadwooding the maple project with the throwline (and the 1/2" Pro-Master, twice). It seemed worth doing, as it will simplify the project, when/if I do the final climb(s).

My concern now--after closer examination with binos--is that the trunk and both stems have pretty significant vertical cracks all the way up AND signs of serious voids/hollowness as well. Here are a few pictures. (They're a bit big so you can see more detail.):

Base of trunk, west side


Left hand stem, 10-12' above base, west side


Base of trunk, east side


Main junction of right hand stem, ~45-50' up, west side
(Tried to get the widowmaker at the top right with the 3-strand, but it's still attached at the butt on the left hand side.)


I'm thinking that the chance of inducing a vertical split might be fairly high. I suppose I could invest in something like this 4" 15,000# ratchet strap, and reinforce the trunk below my cuts, but given that this is the biggest wood I'll have tackled at height--and certainly the deadest--I'm wondering if I should call the pros and watch/take notes instead?

Seems like this crispy critter might be just a little TOO far into the deep end of the pool for a guy with exactly two climbing wrecks on his resume...

What say you, wise ones??

 

[Levi]

Your plan is to climb and dismantle that tree?

It looks like a triple black diamond to me.

 

[pantheraba]

It concerns me you would even consider climbing something like that. Just running a chainsaw to fell it may dislodge deadwood above that can kill someone. Break it down with a strong pull line and winch or come a long, maybe...but don't climb it.

 

[Spellfeller]

Sorry, Levi, should have restated the plan to spur up and dismantle with a high TIP in a neighboring healthy oak.

Maybe just a double black diamond, in that case?

 

[CurSedVoyce]

From my chair... no climber.
Felling it, yes use binders both below and above the cut. Probably rotten to the core. Do you have a pro faller you can call into play? Might be prudent to watch someone with more time under their belt. Learn from them by watching.. Cracked trees even mess with pros. We just know how to reduce the risk. Can't really eliminate it.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

And what Gary said. Pull as much apart over head as you can with throw line and rope.

 

[Levi]

Without being there to see it, I may give it a go with another tree to anchor in. NOT for my 3rd td though!

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Yup.. black diamond....

Ski slope term. Black Diamond is pro level difficulty there friend.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

There is another option
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[Spellfeller]

Thanks, Stephen! If I had that kind of unlimited drop zone, I might go for the ka-boom approach. Alas, I'm in MUCH tighter quarters!

I'll stick to pulling it apart from the ground now. Glad I asked the question! I've climbed the smaller, less dead stem three times to delimb some of the lighter/lower stuff!!

 

[Raj]

Tie in near by tree, tag line and pole saw? Zip/high line setup for your climb line? At any rate, some more experience looks to be required in that regards. Back a number of years back, I can think of someone here would have got a tag line in and set one of those rope saws, a good cut and yank the branch out. Rinse lather repeat. Not gracefull but you know......

 

[Grendel]

I don't know Spell. It sure looks ugly. If you can get above it all comfortably you could probably work it down, but it's going to be some serious saw work.

I like the idea of pulling it apart a bit first. You let a tree go that long, you're accepting some collateral damage or a high price tag for the removal.

 

[Spellfeller]

I like the idea of pulling it apart a bit first.

Me too, Sam!

You let a tree go that long, you're accepting some collateral damage or a high price tag for the removal.

Yup! We just bought the house in June. Luckily the two other big trees on the property that are struggling aren't nearly as far gone.

The previous owner is truly a nice guy. He's been a pleasure to deal with, but he decided to let this tree become my problem!

 

[Spellfeller]

Do you have a pro faller you can call into play? Might be prudent to watch someone with more time under their belt. Learn from them by watching.. Cracked trees even mess with pros. We just know how to reduce the risk. Can't really eliminate it.

Will likely go this route, Stephen, once I pull out as much of the top as I can.

Take a look at this craziness. Can't just drop the left hand (uphill) stem; it overhangs the neighbors fence. I have lots of room to the right (downhill) but the lean is all wrong due to that left side. Would a pro probably chunk the left side down/off and then set a pull line to fall the main spar downhill to the right?

The left-hand side has better integrity/more life than the right and MIGHT be worth working on from the healthy TIP. I could use the heavy-duty-zipties-on-lanyard trick in case of splitting...


That's the good oak with the TIP in it on the far left.

Other views, including the TIP tree below...

 

[CurSedVoyce]

I like that you have a tie in next to it. I would prefer a high line and hang off of that to keep my weight light on the stem... bind it as I go up in a few places. Need to hold all that codom together I figure 3X on the codom and holding leaders together. Then bind with straps the individual leads above that. Nasty tree. I had a maple recently about like that... Just safe enough to piece it down from live portions. I put a binder on a dead portion I did eventually need tied into. When it came time to throw the part I was tied into, I removed the binder and sectioned it. split into bits.
This is just me, how I would do it with my "OH SHAT" flip line/positioning lanyard held on with a zip tie in case it all goes bad.
I had one once I scheduled. I had two good trees to run a high line I would tie into from. I came to do the tree, whole thing had fallen over and was on the ground. Took it off the bid and proceeded to do the rest of the uglies. It just plain fell over. I told the custy the roots were more than likely rotted. Guess I was right ....
Armchair tree work. Hard to tell you what can and will work with out being right there. And if I was there, I would do it for you.
To re-iterate what I told my apprentice the other day....
"I know I can easily piece that tree down from above that defect, but I am not the one climbing and cutting it. If you are not comfortable enough to do the deed, I will. You will be safer not putting your self in an uncomfortable, second guessing situation. You will not be able to work safely if you are constantly second guessing. I will do the tree."
I will always do the worst trees. I will not let my apprentice up one until I know he is capable of properly accessing the situation. If I were there right now, I would be doing it and telling you not to because I would feel you are not ready to do it, but probably ready to learn. Your helmet comm would be full of information and me going over every movement and cut I make with you. Safer that way. But, that's just how I roll. I would hate making an apology to your wife and kids for a mishap. I plan on never doing that for my career if I can help it.

 

[Spellfeller]

I like that you have a tie in next to it. I would prefer a high line and hang off of that to keep my weight light on the stem... bind it as I go up in a few places. Need to hold all that codom together I figure 3X on the codom and holding leaders together. Then bind with straps the individual leads above that. Nasty tree. ...This is just me, how I would do it with my "OH SHAT" flip line/positioning lanyard held on with a zip tie in case it all goes bad. ...Armchair tree work. Hard to tell you what can and will work with out being right there. And if I was there, I would do it for you.

I appreciate your long-distance analysis, man. I know it's just a best guess. Don't think I'll tackle it. I'd like to, but it's not worth the risk.

I told the custy the roots were more than likely rotted.

I'll bet you these are in pretty poor shape too!

You will be safer not putting your self in an uncomfortable, second guessing situation. You will not be able to work safely if you are constantly second guessing...

So true!

If I were there right now, I would be doing it and telling you not to because I would feel you are not ready to do it, but probably ready to learn. Your helmet comm would be full of information and me going over every movement and cut I make with you. Safer that way. But, that's just how I roll. I would hate making an apology to your wife and kids for a mishap. I plan on never doing that for my career if I can help it.

I SO would pay money for on-site coaching. That would rock!

I hope you never have to let a family know there's been a tragedy with one of your workers. And I'd never forgive myself if I let pride, saving a little cabbage, and my love for "problem solving in a vertical environment" affect my family's welfare. That would be pretty stupid!

 

[CurSedVoyce]

 

[sotc]

I think I'd do it. Especially with a good tip nearby. But i think Someone said it's your third Tree? If so I'd say don't do it. The fact that i think I'd climb it based on pictures shouldn't encourage you to do it either. Dead trees take experience to visually decide to climb them and experience to know how high you can go which is more a feel than a see thong

 

[woodworkingboy]

I've looked at a lot of cracks in wood. I get the not so deep vibe from what was shown. Of course it's nothing for anybody to go on but myself.

 

[Grendel]

Exactly Willie, experience in how the wood reacts, how it fails. . .

Lanyarding in with a zip tie link really is a wonderful technique with remote TIPS and sketchy trees. Thanks for bringing that up again Stephen.

 

[Spellfeller]

Thanks, Willie. I'm an amateur noob, for sure. I've got much more experience on the ground: about three dozen successful falls but only 2 climbing wrecks--plus the de-limbing work I've managed to get away with on this tree from the good TIP and some pruning/deadwooding on other trees.

Basically, I need to find a teacher/mentor/production climber willing to be paid by the hour to coach. A lot of the professional development offered near me (e.g. Arbormaster at the Biltmore Estate) requires you to be a full-time pro.

As a weekend warrior, the problem is that any experience I get is governed by my very inexpert risk assessment. I DEFINITELY err on the side of caution and might be skipping jobs that are actually relatively safe, because I fail to assess them properly. That slows the learning curve but keeps me alive. Good trade, I guess!

OTOH, I could miss a risk, put myself in a spot, and get injured. Touch wood & with the help of TH, I've dodged that bullet so far. No personal or property damage to this point.

Guess I'll continue my "Safety Fascist" approach.

 

[Spellfeller]

Break it down with a strong pull line and winch or come a long, maybe...but don't climb it.

Thanks for making this suggestion, Gary. I'll need to bite the bullet and get a Big Shot to set the pull line in the higher stuff, but folks have been recommending one for ages!

 

[pantheraba]

No problem...you probably saw this already...one we broke out with a pull line...a tree I did not want to climb. I have also done it with a pickup truck pulling with good luck. A block/pulley redirect can give you a good pull runway for the vehicle. On this pine we did a redirect to the skidsteer that was outside the fenced yard.

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[CurSedVoyce]

A man must know his limitations..
I can't tell you how much work I gave away in the beginning. I never lose sleep over those either

 

[CurSedVoyce]

.50 cal solution? trim it down..
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