F
Frans
Guest
TreeMachine, could you answer my questions?
T
Tree Machine
Guest
Ahhh, yes. I was going to get to that, Frans.
You posed the primary question, one that is so easily and instantly answered with video, but I will do so in words for the moment. You asked, hang on, give me a minute......
Yes, you use two hands, no other way around that. Proper line tension is required, you sensed that. And reeling the line on in a manner that it will deploy without fail, every single time, is of utmost importance. This is easy to achieve, I'll explain.
First thing, when winding the reel, you don't want it to wobble left-right. When using the factory crank handle, as in Koa's model, the handle far to the outside of the big-diameter bottom plate requires that you keep your inner handle hand stationary, and your winding hand winds; that hand's wrist remains straight, and your hand, straight wrist and forearm move in a circle with the pivot point at your elbow.
I want everyone to try this. Make a fist with your left hand, hold it out in front of your chest, knuckles pointing to the right. Take your left hand, place it out front facing your left knuckles. Grasp the imaginary handle. Hold your right wrist stiff, now wind slowly, in dinner plate-diameter circles around your left hand. Note the pivot point being more or less at your elbow, some bicep motion and maybe a bit of shoulder motion. No problem. Now wind really fast.
Notice now that your left hand moves (the whole reel moves) and the motion in your entire right arm, bicep, shoulder; it's all erratic.
The stationary crank handle on the large-diameter base plate almost requires that you go slow to fairlead the line onto the reel accurately.
Now try this, same knuckle fist, left hand out front. This time, imagine the diameter of the base plate to be that of a smaller saucer dish. Instead of a stationary handle, imagine the fishing swivel. And this time DO NOT KEEP YOUR WRIST STRAIGHT. Your wrist is a flexible ball joint, as is the fishing swivel. Crank slowly around your left knuckles, perfect circles, keep your forearm and elbow stiff and stationary, all the motion of cranking comes from your wrist. Now speed it up. Now go as fast as you can.
An amazing difference, isnt there? You're able to keep the left knuckle hand perfectly stationary, even at top cranking speed.
You will not need to force a top-speed reel-in. 3/4 speed and focus on smooth cranking and non-wobbly inner handle hand.
You posed the primary question, one that is so easily and instantly answered with video, but I will do so in words for the moment. You asked, hang on, give me a minute......
Perfect sense, excellent question. This is the reason the reel evolved from having a stationary handle, to using sticks as cranks to the fishing swivel. It is about the 'fairleading' or the accurate rewinding of the line back on to the spool.
Yes, you use two hands, no other way around that. Proper line tension is required, you sensed that. And reeling the line on in a manner that it will deploy without fail, every single time, is of utmost importance. This is easy to achieve, I'll explain.
First thing, when winding the reel, you don't want it to wobble left-right. When using the factory crank handle, as in Koa's model, the handle far to the outside of the big-diameter bottom plate requires that you keep your inner handle hand stationary, and your winding hand winds; that hand's wrist remains straight, and your hand, straight wrist and forearm move in a circle with the pivot point at your elbow.
I want everyone to try this. Make a fist with your left hand, hold it out in front of your chest, knuckles pointing to the right. Take your left hand, place it out front facing your left knuckles. Grasp the imaginary handle. Hold your right wrist stiff, now wind slowly, in dinner plate-diameter circles around your left hand. Note the pivot point being more or less at your elbow, some bicep motion and maybe a bit of shoulder motion. No problem. Now wind really fast.
Notice now that your left hand moves (the whole reel moves) and the motion in your entire right arm, bicep, shoulder; it's all erratic.
The stationary crank handle on the large-diameter base plate almost requires that you go slow to fairlead the line onto the reel accurately.
Now try this, same knuckle fist, left hand out front. This time, imagine the diameter of the base plate to be that of a smaller saucer dish. Instead of a stationary handle, imagine the fishing swivel. And this time DO NOT KEEP YOUR WRIST STRAIGHT. Your wrist is a flexible ball joint, as is the fishing swivel. Crank slowly around your left knuckles, perfect circles, keep your forearm and elbow stiff and stationary, all the motion of cranking comes from your wrist. Now speed it up. Now go as fast as you can.
An amazing difference, isnt there? You're able to keep the left knuckle hand perfectly stationary, even at top cranking speed.
You will not need to force a top-speed reel-in. 3/4 speed and focus on smooth cranking and non-wobbly inner handle hand.
T
Tree Machine
Guest
Frans question, part 2
Now the actual heart of the question that Frans put's forth, how do you keep that ideal tension? Simple. Take the reel in hand, step over the line with the flaked line BEHIND you. Bring your thighs together creating light pressure on the line. You don't need much pressure, just enough to create a consistent, light taughtness of the line between the front of your thighs and the reel.
This tensioning issue is identically the same with then Koa handle, but it took the transition from Koa handle to swivel to shift the swiftness into full joy. Firing the shot straight off the reel is part of the amazement, but this swift retrieval back on to the reel is really where it's at, as far as efficient shotline management.
I keep two reels in the truck, my Steady Eddie with a 12 oz bag, the other with 14. I'm running 1.75 mm ZingIt on both, at the moment.
When the bag-end of the line gets worn, I mean like after 3 or 4 or 500 shots, reverse the line. The formerly worn portion is now the first to go on the spool and when fully wound, you now have essentially brand new line at the business end.
The inner handle drum goes inside the reel drum, extends through just a bit and curves over. This curve-over lip keeps the inner druum from sliding out of the outer drum. This is factory. When I cut the outer plate off, I cut it using the factory lip as the guide, sand smooth and then fire polish. If you look close, it is not a lip, it is two lips, one that spins and the other stationary. But yes, they're about 3-4 mm out from the drum. The reason I've never tweaked this area is bacause never more than one revolution of line comes off at once, nor has the lip ever seemed to be obstructive in any way.
Now the actual heart of the question that Frans put's forth, how do you keep that ideal tension? Simple. Take the reel in hand, step over the line with the flaked line BEHIND you. Bring your thighs together creating light pressure on the line. You don't need much pressure, just enough to create a consistent, light taughtness of the line between the front of your thighs and the reel.
This tensioning issue is identically the same with then Koa handle, but it took the transition from Koa handle to swivel to shift the swiftness into full joy. Firing the shot straight off the reel is part of the amazement, but this swift retrieval back on to the reel is really where it's at, as far as efficient shotline management.
The reel is self-stowing in and of its own self. I've never put it in a bag, though I guess you could. It holds one shot bag, interchangable of course.Frans said:
I keep two reels in the truck, my Steady Eddie with a 12 oz bag, the other with 14. I'm running 1.75 mm ZingIt on both, at the moment.
When the bag-end of the line gets worn, I mean like after 3 or 4 or 500 shots, reverse the line. The formerly worn portion is now the first to go on the spool and when fully wound, you now have essentially brand new line at the business end.
This area, I have not adjusted at all in the history of its existance. Other than the non-lip experience of the copper wire spool, this lip aspect has remained unchanged. Here's why:Frans said:
The inner handle drum goes inside the reel drum, extends through just a bit and curves over. This curve-over lip keeps the inner druum from sliding out of the outer drum. This is factory. When I cut the outer plate off, I cut it using the factory lip as the guide, sand smooth and then fire polish. If you look close, it is not a lip, it is two lips, one that spins and the other stationary. But yes, they're about 3-4 mm out from the drum. The reason I've never tweaked this area is bacause never more than one revolution of line comes off at once, nor has the lip ever seemed to be obstructive in any way.
Thank you for asking.Frans said:
T
Tree Machine
Guest
NickfromWI
King of Splices
My idea came from seeing the version with the clamp securing the end of the line and bag to the reel for storage/transport. I saw that clamp and thought...well...I'll be polite
Anyway- I was thinking there's got to be a way to clean that up a bit. If there were small notches, maybe a 1/4" deep or less and just thick enough for the throwline to slide in. Then you have a pocket built into the handle, or you could just wrap the line around the handle like I showed in the picture.
This pic kinda shows what I mean.
And I'm doing quite well, thank you. Just got a promotion a few months ago!
love
nick
Anyway- I was thinking there's got to be a way to clean that up a bit. If there were small notches, maybe a 1/4" deep or less and just thick enough for the throwline to slide in. Then you have a pocket built into the handle, or you could just wrap the line around the handle like I showed in the picture.
This pic kinda shows what I mean.
And I'm doing quite well, thank you. Just got a promotion a few months ago!
love
nick
T
Tree Machine
Guest
Fabulous, Nick!
Koa Man, when you fire-polish your rim lip, add a few notches and touch them with the flame, too.
That idea is great for the earlier Koa version. I have since then gone to cutting off the second plate (which was concave to the ground) and replacing it with FLAT plastic, continuous all the way across the bottom plate. By cutting a shotbag-diameter hole in that new plate, within the drum, you use notches in the periphery of the outer plate, just as you described.
Instead of calling them notches, let's call them 'nicks'. Since you brought it up, we'll call them 'Nick's nicks'.
Koa Man, when you fire-polish your rim lip, add a few notches and touch them with the flame, too.
That idea is great for the earlier Koa version. I have since then gone to cutting off the second plate (which was concave to the ground) and replacing it with FLAT plastic, continuous all the way across the bottom plate. By cutting a shotbag-diameter hole in that new plate, within the drum, you use notches in the periphery of the outer plate, just as you described.
Instead of calling them notches, let's call them 'nicks'. Since you brought it up, we'll call them 'Nick's nicks'.
T
Tree Machine
Guest
It is almost 2 am. I accidentally woke Elizabeth when I crawled in at 6 this morning. She was not very compassionate and had me up before 10.
I haven't pulled an all-nighter in a long time, it's sort of nice to know it can still be done without chemical assistance. I thank you for that. And thanks for the insomnia link, Hobby Climber.
And really, I thank you all for your interest. This project is special to me, and I've felt sort of guilty keeping it from our community for so long.
Getting this all out on the table has been cathartic and therapeautic. I've been holding it inside for a long, long time and to be very honest, it feels very good to let it go.
I haven't pulled an all-nighter in a long time, it's sort of nice to know it can still be done without chemical assistance. I thank you for that. And thanks for the insomnia link, Hobby Climber.
And really, I thank you all for your interest. This project is special to me, and I've felt sort of guilty keeping it from our community for so long.
Getting this all out on the table has been cathartic and therapeautic. I've been holding it inside for a long, long time and to be very honest, it feels very good to let it go.
NickfromWI
King of Splices
Nick's nicks?
I'm honored....
NOW GO TO BED!!!!
I'm honored....
NOW GO TO BED!!!!
sotc
Dormant hero!!
cool, i now see the inserted stick and under stand, thanks
T
The Branch Doctor
Guest
Awesome idea Jim. I'm a little throwline improvement obsessed myself and I think it's genius for it's simplicity while still performing. I'm gonna make one for myself (hell yeah). Thank you very much for sharing your adventure in creating the ultimate reel with us..... straight up dude, it's genius.
Stumpy brought up an automatic fly fishing reel as a tool for when aloft. I made one a couple years ago and posted pics of it here. I'm not in the mood to look up the thread so I'll just throw the pics back up.
Stumpy brought up an automatic fly fishing reel as a tool for when aloft. I made one a couple years ago and posted pics of it here. I'm not in the mood to look up the thread so I'll just throw the pics back up.
Ax-Man
Don't make me chop you
Again, excellent presentation TM. Impressive
Your thread also got me stirred up for a better way to manage a throwline. I had some time yesterday to go reel shopping so to speak at the hardware stores to see if I could modify a off the shelf reel. The offerings were very poor compared to your streamlined version. I took one look at some reels and just left it at that.
Yesterday also found me at our Morbark dealer to finish up some business. I bought one of those cheap Chinese folding cubes for 15 bucks just to try one. For my needs this will work for the short term. The cheap folding cube will solve my storage problem that has been a pain using plastic buckets. How that cube will work on the job will be another test.
Gotta question for you TM .
Did this quest your on for perfecting a smooth deployment reel evolve from using a BigShot verses plain old hand throwing. Is there a different need in the line deployment department using a BigShot that a reel is better compared to having line coming out of a bucket. Or does it really matter ??? I dunno because I don't have a BigShot.
I really have to admire your determination to follow through on your project and be able to create something that your happy with or at least you seem to be.
Good work and looks great
Your thread also got me stirred up for a better way to manage a throwline. I had some time yesterday to go reel shopping so to speak at the hardware stores to see if I could modify a off the shelf reel. The offerings were very poor compared to your streamlined version. I took one look at some reels and just left it at that.
Yesterday also found me at our Morbark dealer to finish up some business. I bought one of those cheap Chinese folding cubes for 15 bucks just to try one. For my needs this will work for the short term. The cheap folding cube will solve my storage problem that has been a pain using plastic buckets. How that cube will work on the job will be another test.
Gotta question for you TM .
Did this quest your on for perfecting a smooth deployment reel evolve from using a BigShot verses plain old hand throwing. Is there a different need in the line deployment department using a BigShot that a reel is better compared to having line coming out of a bucket. Or does it really matter ??? I dunno because I don't have a BigShot.
I really have to admire your determination to follow through on your project and be able to create something that your happy with or at least you seem to be.
Good work and looks great
T
Tree Machine
Guest
Answer to your first sentence, No. I was on this before the BigShot came to market, having used pouch bags, leather purses from the thrift shop, buckets, etc.
I throw more than I BigShot and the reel works equally well for both. I pull the BigShot only when I'm over 40 feet or so.
H
Hobby Climber
Guest
I don't generally like to monologue, ...
-----------------------------------
TM,
Your kidding us right!
A most excellent post for sure you ol insomniac you!
HC
T
Tree Machine
Guest
OK, this thread is the mother of all monologues, but I was basically given the ball and told to run. This one wasn't for me, it was for the team.
Like Axeman has done, I hope that many others of you scope out the electrical section of your hardware store for a good shotline reel candidate, one that has an internal handle that goes across the center.
Kite reels don't work, they're a different principal and a smaller diameter. A smaller diameter may work with smaller line, but the 1.75 mm is about as small as our shotline lines get. I feel the diameter of the reels I've shown you are as small a diameter as you would want to go. A bigger diameter could work as well, or better.
If you overshoot, step on the reel. Gently set down your pole. Take the line and trace it back down--hey, that's another cool benefit, stopping the reel instantly and hands-free, that way the bag doesn't drop so far that you have to pull it back up much of a distance, nor do you have to drop your pole on the ground in a hurried manner to grab the line. It's all pretty smooth.
Like Axeman has done, I hope that many others of you scope out the electrical section of your hardware store for a good shotline reel candidate, one that has an internal handle that goes across the center.
Kite reels don't work, they're a different principal and a smaller diameter. A smaller diameter may work with smaller line, but the 1.75 mm is about as small as our shotline lines get. I feel the diameter of the reels I've shown you are as small a diameter as you would want to go. A bigger diameter could work as well, or better.
Yes. I think. Quite boring, though. You'll see the bigShot go off and the reel unwind, but in that sort of clip you won't see how high the shot was or anything because the camera can only be on the reel, or the tree, not both. When you're the shooter, you see both, but to be honest, from the shooter's standpoint, the gratifying part is watching the shotbag sail up and over a 70-foot limb.No_Bivy said:
If you overshoot, step on the reel. Gently set down your pole. Take the line and trace it back down--hey, that's another cool benefit, stopping the reel instantly and hands-free, that way the bag doesn't drop so far that you have to pull it back up much of a distance, nor do you have to drop your pole on the ground in a hurried manner to grab the line. It's all pretty smooth.
T
Tree Machine
Guest
Oh, but back to Bivy's question about the video; it DOES show the rewinding of the line, the placement of the line into the Nick's nick, putting the bag into the through-hole and back over the handle, which takes about as long to view it as it took for you to read this post.
Hey Branch Doctor, excellent use of the Freino Biner on keeping your fly reel setup together.
Very nice!
Hey Branch Doctor, excellent use of the Freino Biner on keeping your fly reel setup together.
Very nice!
T
Tree Machine
Guest
MastaBlasta, anything I should know about posting video here in this thread?
Paul B
I dig hammocks.
you should be able to embed youtube vids here Treemachine, just use the embed code that youtube gives you. 
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Yep, nothing to it.
T
Tree Machine
Guest
I've never done You-tube. Watched a lot of them, but have never posted anything.
So, what's the scoop on posting video to your server, Blasta?
They're in Quicktime format, under 4 meg, I kept em small knowing the only time I would ever need them would be to eventually post them for Arborists.
Here's a couple streaming videos of Arbo stuff I have on an independent server, to see if things come through. I don't have shotline reel footage there, but I could put it up there if these test pieces work. The downside is, if I ever pull the plug on the server, the videos get pulled off of the post. If I submit them to the Blaster server, they're here permanently unless Blaster pulls them.
TEST, Nick from Wisconsin's tenex sling and the Bull Hitch
TEST, Tree Machine tuning a Silky Saw (turn up the volume)
See if these come up.
So, what's the scoop on posting video to your server, Blasta?
They're in Quicktime format, under 4 meg, I kept em small knowing the only time I would ever need them would be to eventually post them for Arborists.
Here's a couple streaming videos of Arbo stuff I have on an independent server, to see if things come through. I don't have shotline reel footage there, but I could put it up there if these test pieces work. The downside is, if I ever pull the plug on the server, the videos get pulled off of the post. If I submit them to the Blaster server, they're here permanently unless Blaster pulls them.
TEST, Nick from Wisconsin's tenex sling and the Bull Hitch
TEST, Tree Machine tuning a Silky Saw (turn up the volume)
See if these come up.
Paul B
I dig hammocks.
its easy peezy. just register there, up your vid and wait a couple minutes. then get the embed code and paste it here. nothing to it.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
T
Tree Machine
Guest
I will have to do it later. I'm getting a lot of heat from wifey. She just asked if Master Blaster is the guy she once threatened to castrate in a public forum after he invited me to party in Louisiana.
Remember her?
She's saying she'll follow through if you take up any more of our vacation time.
Remember her?
She's saying she'll follow through if you take up any more of our vacation time.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Just remember what it says in the Bible: You are the Head of the House. 
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