sotc
Dormant hero!!
It will have a little more friction on the way up. My movements are the same. If I body thrust, I schuck slack after ascending a few feet or footlock the tail, I don't see how my movements would be any different.
It will have a little more friction on the way up. My movements are the same. If I body thrust, I schuck slack after ascending a few feet or footlock the tail, I don't see how my movements would be any different.
sotc
Dormant hero!!
Leon, is that what you call your jar of ****?
B
Blinky
Guest
They'd have to be on some expensive rope for me to open the package.
rumination
Migratory Hippie Arbolist
K
klimbinfool
Guest
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #80
Thankyou Willie
sotc
Dormant hero!!
For?
K
klimbinfool
Guest
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #82
stating what I was thinking
wiley_p
Climbing Up
Your missing something. The traditional closed system causes the climber to advance the knot manually vs. a open system with slack tending pulley.
Once in the canopy a climber has to constantly untie everything to pass structure instead of just unclipping the sharp end.
You guys are clinging to an archaic method for no other reason except misguided tradition. Stig is right, with the logic many of you are using, sawyers should learn to fall trees with an ax and whip. Before driving a chip truck, start guys out with a horse and wagon.
B
Blinky
Guest
Wait, I'm foggy on something. I got the impression Willie uses a split tail with a Blakes... am i wrong?
The only people I know still using tautlines on a closed system are MB and Treelooker... and they're just bullheaded. Willie, are you bullheaded too?
I think the advantages of a split-tail are obvious, the knot you use can be anything from a tautline to an XT. The pulley makes shucking slack a lot easier with one hand.
Just to reiterate though... all climbers should know how to tie and use a closed system, it's a fundamental that's really handy in big wide canopies where you need to throw second TIPs.
...and footlocking may be old school but still, it's by far the best way to get into a big tree short of using a Wraptor.
The only people I know still using tautlines on a closed system are MB and Treelooker... and they're just bullheaded. Willie, are you bullheaded too?
I think the advantages of a split-tail are obvious, the knot you use can be anything from a tautline to an XT. The pulley makes shucking slack a lot easier with one hand.
Just to reiterate though... all climbers should know how to tie and use a closed system, it's a fundamental that's really handy in big wide canopies where you need to throw second TIPs.
...and footlocking may be old school but still, it's by far the best way to get into a big tree short of using a Wraptor.
I tend to start people out with minimalist systems-what some would call old school. It seems logical to me to show someone how to climb with a minimum of gear and mechanical devices........but I don't see any reason to confine someone to minimum gear for a long period of time. Show someone how to tie a closed DdRT system straight to a D using nothing but the climbing line and that it works-then jumping over to a split tail with minder pulley and using a Pantin shouldn't strain the brain. A little actual climbing quickly reveals the potential strengths and weaknesses of additional devices and methods.
sotc
Dormant hero!!
Like said above, I will start a guy for a day or 2 with what your calling a closed system, then I bring in the splittail for a day or 2 and then the micro pully. From that point on I only care that they can tie a Blake as easy as a shoe. If they want to stay with a Blake, fine if not I will show them different knots to try out till they find one they like.
I agree that having to untie every thing to advance sucks but new guys are usually in a tree with some one else for awhile, that person will normaly be in the tree so much quicker any way that they can set the new guys final tie in.
I agree that having to untie every thing to advance sucks but new guys are usually in a tree with some one else for awhile, that person will normaly be in the tree so much quicker any way that they can set the new guys final tie in.
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klimbinfool
Guest
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #87
I guess it depends on how far back we are calling old school. Split tail with slack tender vs Vt with slack tender?. and are we also considering a spliced eye new or old. A micro pulley or even a small biner has been used for a long time with or with out a split tail.
With out a slack tender or tieing straight to the D's your right Dave, it's going to have to be a traditional body, hip thrust, or footlock assist, tie and re-tie the knot. Add a slack tender and spliced eye to a split tail plus biner and the mechanics will be the same and no change in the tree.Same as vt other then a little more friction and a big ol hitch.
With out a slack tender or tieing straight to the D's your right Dave, it's going to have to be a traditional body, hip thrust, or footlock assist, tie and re-tie the knot. Add a slack tender and spliced eye to a split tail plus biner and the mechanics will be the same and no change in the tree.Same as vt other then a little more friction and a big ol hitch.
sotc
Dormant hero!!
Burnham
Woods walker
Interesting conversation. Sort of mirrors an in-depth discussion that took place amongst the evaluating facilitators (those who train and certify climbing instructors in the FS climbing program) at the end of our climbing instructor's workshop this late spring...the one right after the WCGTG, that Pete McTree attended with me.
The point under discussion was whether an instructor candidate who was satisfactory at instructing, safe, and competent, but whose climbing skills and thus the range of his instruction was limited to "'old school" techniques.
He was teaching methods that are all recognized in the USFS Climbing Guide as suitable. His students were able to accomplish the climbing tasks that they needed to be prepared for to do their work. But the scope of available equipment, techniques, etc. that he could not expose them to was rather broad. And they may well have ended up working harder to get the same things done in a tree than their peers blessed with a more up-to-date instructor.
We decided to certify him. But I had misgivings, and still do.
Pete's observation after he listened to the bulk of the back and forth was something along these lines...I'll risk paraphrasing him: in his view, to be a fully competent climbing instructor requires an individual to be fully conversant in the state of the art. The student whose instructor has less to offer, inevitably gets less out of the instructional opportunity.
I know this isn't really addressing Greg's basic thread subject, but I'll toss it into the mix to see where it takes the current discussion.
The point under discussion was whether an instructor candidate who was satisfactory at instructing, safe, and competent, but whose climbing skills and thus the range of his instruction was limited to "'old school" techniques.
He was teaching methods that are all recognized in the USFS Climbing Guide as suitable. His students were able to accomplish the climbing tasks that they needed to be prepared for to do their work. But the scope of available equipment, techniques, etc. that he could not expose them to was rather broad. And they may well have ended up working harder to get the same things done in a tree than their peers blessed with a more up-to-date instructor.
We decided to certify him. But I had misgivings, and still do.
Pete's observation after he listened to the bulk of the back and forth was something along these lines...I'll risk paraphrasing him: in his view, to be a fully competent climbing instructor requires an individual to be fully conversant in the state of the art. The student whose instructor has less to offer, inevitably gets less out of the instructional opportunity.
I know this isn't really addressing Greg's basic thread subject, but I'll toss it into the mix to see where it takes the current discussion.
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klimbinfool
Guest
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #90
The student whose instructor has less to offer, inevitably gets less out of the instructional opportunity.
I'm glad you finaly chymed in. I was waiting for a reply from you, it's very much valued.
This is so true what you quoted above. Some instructors are just instructors with out the ample back ground and diversity that is needed to offer a full course meal. Kinda of like some arborist putting in bids not knowing what it really takes to get the job done because he or she has never done the work or enough of it.
Although my instructor was good and very patient, I peeked out very quick and was soon seeking higher ground. I consider myself lucky to run with the crowd I did and still do. The learning curve was fast and furious and the ideas and that came out of it where phenominal.
As Frans mentioned, it's very rare to find one who is well versed in all aspects. Sometimes I think this is do to your quote above but, it's also do to the individual and his personal drive and where he or she wants to take it and how fast.
I need to quit writing so much ...sheeeesh ramblin..... I guess I didnt add that cut and past correctly
I'm glad you finaly chymed in. I was waiting for a reply from you, it's very much valued.
This is so true what you quoted above. Some instructors are just instructors with out the ample back ground and diversity that is needed to offer a full course meal. Kinda of like some arborist putting in bids not knowing what it really takes to get the job done because he or she has never done the work or enough of it.
Although my instructor was good and very patient, I peeked out very quick and was soon seeking higher ground. I consider myself lucky to run with the crowd I did and still do. The learning curve was fast and furious and the ideas and that came out of it where phenominal.
As Frans mentioned, it's very rare to find one who is well versed in all aspects. Sometimes I think this is do to your quote above but, it's also do to the individual and his personal drive and where he or she wants to take it and how fast.
I need to quit writing so much ...sheeeesh ramblin..... I guess I didnt add that cut and past correctly
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
That's the second time I've seen that spelled thataway. I'm pretty sure it's "chimed," like a chime.
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klimbinfool
Guest
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #92
I'm pretty sure your right....I'm just a tree guy ya know ...damn I even have to watch my spelling in here...lol
SkwerI
Treehouser
Oh yeah. Butch is letting it slide a bit since you're new, but he'll come down on you soon enough.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
One thing I would like to note, is that with all this discussion on basic training, hardly anything has been mentioned regarding spur work.
I feel with the current trends and the advancement of rope work, spur work is being neglected. When you can see top-notched climbers doing removals spurless, is it truly because they are so good with a rope that they don't need spurs? or that they not trained enough with spurs to be able to utilize all of the tools available to them.
Spur work and its techniques are seem to be taught as an aside. This appears to produce the impression that "great climbers don't need spurs". Anybody else notice this?
Dave
I feel with the current trends and the advancement of rope work, spur work is being neglected. When you can see top-notched climbers doing removals spurless, is it truly because they are so good with a rope that they don't need spurs? or that they not trained enough with spurs to be able to utilize all of the tools available to them.
Spur work and its techniques are seem to be taught as an aside. This appears to produce the impression that "great climbers don't need spurs". Anybody else notice this?
Dave
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
I love my spurs. I have two different sets.
SkwerI
Treehouser
Good point, Dave. In my experience, it seems to be that climbers who started on spurs before learning how to climb spurless are most adept at using spurs. Most of those who began climbing spurless never seem to pick up on spur climbing.
S
sytherstrike
Guest
I started off climbing using the old school method and using spurs. I've upgraded to a split tail using a blakes hitch, and climbing trees spurless. I don't think I'd be able to move around the tree using the old school system as easily as using the split tail. When I first started using the split tail, I was kinda unsure about how it would feel since I was so used to using the closed system. After about two climbs I feel faster and a lot more capable using the new system. It feels good and comfortable. I don't think I would appreciate how well it works with out first climbing with the old closed system, so if I was to teach someone one day I would tell them to start with the closed system, also the closed system costs less for those climbers like me, set on having their own gear that they can set to were it works for them and get used to using. I still use my spurs on take downs, I couldn't imagine doing a td without them.
wiley_p
Climbing Up
In the last 12 years of training climbers I have changed the way I start an individual. Spur climbing is a fundamental aspect of climbing. I used to break climbers in on spurs, pruning conifers,Now all pruning is done spurless. I now start a new climber out on a rope doing easy prunes, handsaw only. Spur climbing now, means a guy is doing a removal,which means constant use of a chainsaw aloft.
That's not an ideal starting point for someone when they are learning how to safely and productively move in a tree. I think it's better if the trainee has some comfort and understanding of how to use the lifeline first. Then I've seen a faster progression when working on spurs.
That's not an ideal starting point for someone when they are learning how to safely and productively move in a tree. I think it's better if the trainee has some comfort and understanding of how to use the lifeline first. Then I've seen a faster progression when working on spurs.
SkwerI
Treehouser
Excellent point, Dave. But I was referring to the majority of locals who all climb on spikes exclusively, usually with no shirt or glasses and no formal training. That's just the way most start out around here. It's how I started.
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