Is there a preferred cut to use, say when you do not want to be in the proximity of the cut, whether it be on the ground, in the tree, out of the bucket, etc., where you can set this cut up and apply tension with preferred device, GRCS, winch, loader, etc., and it will release?
I know murph gets flack for his cuts, but he implies what I am wondering.
I don't know about "preferred cut", but I've had good luck with the method I described...notch, plunge cut to establish hinge, then make back cut several inches above that. I always try to make my hinge cut a couple of inches higher than the bottom of the face cut. That way, there are essentially three "steps" after the tree falls. Probably a moot point, but I like having fiber holding until I'm ready for it to go. In an extreme situation, I might make the back cut 6" to 8" above the hinge cut. As long as the cuts bypass, a good pull can break the fibers.
I haven't done it but a few times up in the tree, but I've worked alone a lot over the years, and have used this method at ground level as well.
I, too, am interested in hearing from others who have used this method. Would there be an advantage to a lower back cut as opposed to a higher one?
Seems reasonable, Scott...I always have been able to put myself in a satisfactory place to finish the release in person, so I haven't learned a way to deal with that situation.
I've got a dead pine to get down for a neighbor when I get around to it. It's prolly 80' tall, with a concrete driveway about 45' to the west, and some trees to spare to the east. I'm planning to set a line in the top, with slight tension to the west, climb up about 30' to 40', set another line (to pull east), cut a notch (toward the west), plunge the hinge, set a high back cut, then drop to the ground. I'll hitch the second rope to my truck (or his tractor) and just get the slack out of it. Then I'll notch the trunk to go east, and do the same for it...plunge hinge, make high back cut...then give a pinch more tension on the west side, then pull 'er over. If all goes according to plan, that pine will scissor itself down in a small area with little collateral damage.
I don't quite follow how the plunge for the hinge then a higher back cut works. I get the delayed release part, but why the two steps for the back cut? The fiber runout from the higher back when it breaks, is down to the plunge kerf? What is the advantage over just having more holding wood?
Yes. The plunge cut is right where you'd be if you were cutting it down conventionally. Then the back cut is (in my case) several inches above that. You cut just until your cuts match, just slightly bypassing the plunge cut. Then when pulled, the fibers are "broken" from the higher cut down to the lower cut and from there, it's just like a normal felling operation...hinge guides/controls the fall.
I myself always have been able to stay at the stump to complete the kill. A few times earlier on, I flopped some trees alone using a pull line hooked to a skid steer or truck. In that case, I allowed a little more hinge based on the tree size, species, direction of crown weight, etc.
I was just having a discussion about this at work. A guy that I work with really likes to do what he calls a 'snap cut back cut' or Murph calls a step cut. (I call it a step cut) Dwayne, who I work with insists that placing the back cut higher than the plunge is the way to go, however Murphy preaches below.
On this I have to side with Murphy, I think lower is better for a few reasons. First if it goes prematurely for any reason making the high back cut it is bye bye saw.
Second in my opinion, the lower cut is more resistant to force in the other, off lay, direction; be it wind, lean, limb weight, whatever. Ill illustrate in my drawing
The yellow arrows illustrate the area of wood on the stump remaining after the fall. The hinge is set with the red, plunge cut, and the green represents the back cut.
In this drawing as the one with the higher back cut gets pushed backwards, in my undrstanding the wood, at the top of the yellow arrows acts as a fulcrum multiplying the upwards pulling forces on the hinge wood. Think if you set a block of wood, or some shims at the front of your face notch. when the log hits that it multiplies the force, the hinge wood pulls out and the tree falls. That step from the higher back cut does the same thing I think.
Looking at the second example, I believe that piece of wood coming off the bottom of the spar thats sits down on the back cut actually holds the tree much better.
I did this to a small tree, on that I could climb to the top of, a pine. I used my trim saw and I set it all up, rope, face, plunge, backcut. Then I pulled it but, the wrong way. Couldnt get it over, Billy got on the rope, the two of us couldnt get it to fall. Faced the rope the right way and easily pulled it over myself. Not a clinical study, and I didnt perform the same test with a high back cut.
In summary I do actually like the step cut as, I will admit, I learned from one of Murphys videos. The times I have seen it done with the high cut though I wasnt thrilled with, I much prefer the lower back cut and that has worked well for me.
In most cases absolutely, and in honesty the times that I have used the step cut were more practice than anything. But on larger dead or hazard trees I certainly see the need.
And in my drawing I meant to show a more established hinge, generally I stick with a 1/3 face and a 10% hinge.
I don't knock these methods. But I can accomplish anything necessary with tried and true simple methods, that require no more effort. I'm just not seeing the need for any of this. Why must we complicate the work? Put a rope in it, tighten up, cut the focker, and tell the guy in the truck "GO!"
I can't dispute your "study" nick, as i have limited experience with it anyway, and have no desire to become a "pro" at it. However, I can't really see where the location of the back cut would make such a difference, as it's the height of the fiber holding area that, in combination with the hinge wood, is "holding" the tree. The higher the back cut, the more "hold" is there to secure the tree until it is pulled. At least that's how I see it.
As to losing the saw if it goes prematurely, this isn't a jump cut in a horizontal limb. It's a vertical trunk, and normally, it's going to go slowly, unless the rope is tensioned way too much. That's another thing. You mention pushing backward...I secure it with a line before any cutting is done.
You may be right, Nick. I'll give a lower back cut a whirl sometime just to try it out.
I don't knock these methods. But I can accomplish anything necessary with tried and true simple methods, that require no more effort. I'm just not seeing the need for any of this. Why must we complicate the work? Put a rope in it, tighten up, cut the focker, and tell the guy in the truck "GO!"
I'm not knocking you for experimenting and wanting to dabble with different methods. Not at all. Me, I've flopped a million trees that were crumble hazards. I wouldn't want to add more factors then necessary at the stump, such as breaking apart that wood between the cuts. Me, I like to use just enough pull to get sensitive trees over. Just enough, not a whisker more.
I dont think there is neccesarily a right or wrong. Im not a physics expert or a pro with 30 years on the job, nor have I given the high back cut alot of time or any real study. I only came into experience with the higher cut at Davey which is in the last few weeks, Dwayne a foreman there is really fond of it though so I got to see it a quite a few times already. I have only done the lower version I a more familiar with maybe 6-10 times and on nothing major.
I don't knock these methods. But I can accomplish anything necessary with tried and true simple methods, that require no more effort. I'm just not seeing the need for any of this. Why must we complicate the work? Put a rope in it, tighten up, cut the focker, and tell the guy in the truck "GO!"
I've got a dead pine to get down for a neighbor when I get around to it. It's prolly 80' tall, with a concrete driveway about 45' to the west, and some trees to spare to the east. I'm planning to set a line in the top, with slight tension to the west, climb up about 30' to 40', set another line (to pull east), cut a notch (toward the west), plunge the hinge, set a high back cut, then drop to the ground. I'll hitch the second rope to my truck (or his tractor) and just get the slack out of it. Then I'll notch the trunk to go east, and do the same for it...plunge hinge, make high back cut...then give a pinch more tension on the west side, then pull 'er over. If all goes according to plan, that pine will scissor itself down in a small area with little collateral damage.
What's a euc man? I want to just emphasize, I don't want you thinkin I'm bashing your studies and ideas. Just throwin my ideas out there to spice up the topic.
What's a euc man? I want to just emphasize, I don't want you thinkin I'm bashing your studies and ideas. Just throwin my ideas out there to spice up the topic.
As I know it, out west there are two kinds of tree guys. Oak men, who do the trimming, and the normal removals, and the common place stuff and then there are Euc men. The guys who do the big dangerous tough Eucalyptus trees, the rough old school guys...
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