Rope

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  • #251
Jug Sling can carry an open 20gallon jug upright from like a squared 4 opposing leg stability platform like no other knot.
Can be one of the more confusing knots to tie, easier view from more common Constrictor:

Single Constrictor hangs bottle at angle(spills) from 1 support leg, so needs stronger rope, more likely that midpoint of rope force rides over rather than locking into jug shoulder than with thinner line, 4 legs of support more allow that thinner line.
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The thinner line also carries same force denser like thinner Prusic cord of 2 legs support at half tension but more densely packed imposing greater on the full tension host line(that if are equal diameters the half tension hitch grabs the greater tension rigidity not quite as well).
 
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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #255
Jug is more complicated, certainly, but if have a grip on Clove, then Constrictor; using this strategy in vid, places Jug usage much closer to a reality! Makes a jug carry totally upright like pulled from 4 corners of plywood with center round hole that seats under lip of jug.
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Am fan of Constrictor too, Dbl.Constrictor for permanent bindings etc.;
(been wondering tho, isn't it ironic, that irony is everywhere?)
but i cheat and leave 2nd /last tuck under SPart loose until fully tight thru 1st;
then lock down further with 2nd.
Have made a number of hoseclamps from throw line w/Dbl.Constrictor for various shituations w/o a problem.
When really getting it tight will start from SPart , and pry under each 90degree from SPart after an arc to then sweat/swig real, real tight, chasing slack/combing thru to the securing tuck under SPart. This gets it very, very tight restriction.
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i really like how the SPart feeds center between 2 rails, and then the Bitter End(BE) finishes same to opposite side, in this very well balanced look and feel of input and output (of especially the nip) locked securely into center between the 'rails'/ can't wander, no escape.
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But for more nonSuperman stuff i go 1 step down, many times slipped, sometimes doubled to Bag Knot that has the same centered input/output locks very, very well again under the direct force of the SPart after all those arcs.
It does not double bury the BE under the crossing before going under SPart as Constrictor does,
BUT in trade does go more towards the apex of the SPart Primary Arc of more tension to host at that position than the more centered position of the Single Constrictor especially, very especially on a small host.
The small host , places that tuck then more immediately closer if not under the shear 2x force of the arc apex as the very best nip position ever.
And, the difference in the tightness approaching that point is calc'd by degrees from not distance from.
In a normal usage the nipping under SPart rides up over the parent 'Clove' type/signature midway crossing to get nip, but in Constrictor the nip doesn't ride up over/above the midway crossing but directly under. So less force at that point than Bag, but then Constrictor does the double bury at that point as is under midway crossing and SPart at same time. Groundline has the single tuck/nip under SPart too, but again at a higher position of more intense nip as rides over the midway crossing/best if at top of the arc apex.
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Another related is the Groundline Hitch, pitches BE 90degrees, so a bit harder to tighten for binding.
All 3 are also great hitches, my fave/fave is Slipped Bag for utility stuff, best if the trap of nip is under primary arc directly powered by SPart.
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i consider all 3 as evolvements of Clove, that is a Crossing Knot.
i also see Constrictor as kinda an 'outie' to about same form/strategy as Strangle as an 'innie' version, so i recognize it as part of this group/family.
Wiki_Clove-of-Crossed-Turn-Family_2.png

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i really like the centered, secure trapped alignment/nip of especially the BE in Constrictor/Bag, that is fairly unique here;
but seen in another EXCELLENT knot, that even puts that X trap on BE at the top/apex of the Primary Arc right off of SPart.
This is soooooooooo well engineered , no wonder we call it the Sailor's Hitch !:
Sailor-hitch-side-vs-top-crossing-pressure-change-by-position-like-nipping.png

Curiously, in ABoK lesson#1209 mr.Ashley quips that surgeons called the Surgeon Knot a Ligature, for it is so common to them that they would then so Naturally not speak of a Surgeon's Knot as a term anymore than a Sailor would call there everyday knot a Sailor's Knot..
After showing this super knot un-named and recommends usage for a child's swing, that we call Sailor's !
This is a hybrid of Clove type crossing knot at start, flowing to a Backhand turn at finish so 2 often used strategies as one.
i further find it related to Sailor Gripping Hitch (adds more turns between SPart and Clove like crossing to make a Friction Hitch) and then also another super knot the Pile Hitch, and it's Friction Hitch version as well of Icicle.
 
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what are everyone’s thoughts on the zeppelin bend in safety critical applications? Jepson rec’d it in Knots at Work, and even said it was his personal preference for joining climbing lines. It’s a pretty new knot, and I haven’t seen anyone do any systematic testing on it.

It seems like the perfect bend, except for the bulkiness created by the ends coming out perpendicular to the rest of the line.
 
I'm a big fan. Haven't used it much for climbing, but I don't have an issue trusting it. Holds great, but still comes apart after loading. It's bulky, but lays flat, which is nice. My main anchor sling is a piece of treemaster with a zeppelin bend.
 
It's not a new knot, it was used to tie down airships, hence the name. I love it for joining lines but i usually just do a overhand with figure 8 tails for safety (you absolutely need the 8s). The big overhand knot has both lines coming out the same spot, which makes it less likely to snag when pulling it over stuff.
 
It's not a new knot, it was used to tie down airships, hence the name.

that much is apparently untrue. Funny how things tend to get named like that.

from Wikipedia:

The commonly accepted name for this knot stems from its alleged use to moor airships: a Zeppelinbeing a rigid-bodied type of airship, and Charles Rosendahl being the US Navy officer who allegedly insisted it be used to moor airships under his command.[1] However, the alleged connection between Charles Rosendahl and the 'Zeppelin bend' has now been refuted. Dr Giles Camplin has conducted extensive research into ground handling of Zeppelin airships and concludes that the Zeppelin bend was not used with mooring lines. Dr Camplin asserts that a rolling hitch (#1735) is a more likely method used by ground handlers to join ropes. Further to that, it is also likely that a 'toggle' was used to unite to mooring lines with fixed eye splice terminations. Dr Camplin's report was published in issue #60 of 'Dirigible' in 2010. Charles Rosendahl (in an interview) was asked about the 'Zeppelin bend' – and he denied any knowledge of it.[citation needed]Historical records now point to Bob Thrun as the first to publish his discovery in 1966 &ndash, naming it simply as 'An easily untied bend' (Published in the 'Potomac Caver' newsletter Vol IX No.7 1966). Bob Thrun was well known in the caving community, and a remarkable innovator. Prior to Bob's discovery, the late Desmond Mandeville discovered for himself in 1961, later to present is as "Poor Man's Pride" in articles in the IGKT's Knotting Matters.

link:
 
It's also a pretty knot. It has a pleasing symmetry and form. I always admire it for a couple seconds after tying :^D
 
Not the mooring lines of the zeppelin, but the knot used to weave the net covering the earlier models to hold the pod under the gazeous body.
 
The zeppelin bend is the knot I teach all my groundies to memorize, as it has saved our asses in many a rigging scenario, especially when needing to add extra rope for MA or to connect to the mini-skid for pulling over leaning trees. Never binds, making breakdown of the scenario somewhat enjoyable.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #264
To me, Zeppelin/Rosendahl Bend is part of a family of like Bends/continuation of line force thru a node of deformity
>>vs Hitch as a termination node.
Zepp is probably pick of the 4: Zepp/false Zepp/Riggers/B'Fly
The most rigid rope parts to all Bends/Hitches to me are the input of linear force thru SPart/Standing Part(s) to conversion to dispersion as a radial force in the 'Primary Arc'.
>>This to me is the hook in hitch, plural on 2 sided hitch of Bend with input and output legs to a center termination in something like this type model.
SPart is most raw tension, therefore most rigid iron, Primary Arc is 2nd most tension therefore rigidity, all further rope Parts are less tension, so less rigidity.
>>But any arc/deformity apex also offers greater external force against host than the internal tensions powering the apex
>>the 2x effect in pulleys point, that is then the best nip point
If rest of softer lacing parts can just keep the more rigid hooks in play, w/o loosing nip; all is good.
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The SPart part of hooks can be side by side bound together w/offset forceline SPart to SPart OR linked as more intense focused inline SParts of more hard locking sincerity.
The open relief/unguarded side of hooks can be aligned to allow an open side OR as more intense/no relief NO open side.
>>note how covers the strength of strength in the SPart, and the strength of weakness in the open face.
Hook-model-zeppelin-riggers-alpine-butterfly-applied-edit.png
Mixed balance as best:
#1 in pic>The Zeppelin offers balance of side by side hooks less intense + no open side more intense
#4 in pic>as like Butterfly of opposite balance: intense inline SParts from linked hooks + an open side of relief.
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seizing over kill of too intense using both factors in intense mode:
#3 in pic>Rigger's intense inline SParts from interlinked hooks + no relief of open side
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opposite of Rigger's >> both factors in low intense mode:
#2 in pic>False Zeppelin: side by side hooks are less intense/not inline SParts + shared open side of relief as less intense.
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Just another example expression of ropeLogic to me.
4ways to go, balanced is best, too much is too much as can bind, but all relief is wrong in the fail sense
 
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  • #265
Rosenvinge Cinch(?)


kinda fig8 for eye on steroids, 1 way compared to B'Fly.
But lays more Naturally to service, rather than wrenching B'Fly eye from perpendicular as it sits to pulling inline to end to end axis.
 
Anyone use Everkwik 12strand rope? Wesspur sells it...


Been thinking about this for awhile. Pat's post about crappy straps got me to finally ask. I'm interested in it as a 'hardware store' rope that's better than hardware store rope. Something with verifiable strength and characteristics for tying down loads, and just beating up for mundane tasks. Good hand and knotability, and the ability to remove knots when finished is important to me. Also being able to slip around posts at weird angles for tensioning loads. Is this that rope?
 
It’s not priced badly. You Sir may just have to be the ginny pig and try it out. Old rigging/climb line get turned into tie down line. But I’ve seen 1200’ spools of 1/4” Stablebraid go for that price on eBay.
 
I used that cinch knot for years.

I too was shown that knot decades ago and it is much sexier 8) to tie it mostly with one hand via 'whipping' the bight multiple times around the rope rather than laboriously wrapping the bight using both hands. Quicker that way too:dude:
 
The price point would suggest so! It's a 12 strand hollow braid so it's super easy to splice into cool things, and you can make loopies, whoopies, shackles, and other awesome stuff, but i don't know how hollow braids holds up to abrasion, i thought they didn't do too hot. Tying down loads usually means a trucker hitch, which is about the most abrasion you can do to a rope. Has anyone ever used a hollow braid on a bollard lowering loads? Or for running lines at all other than ones on a drum like a winch?
 
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  • #271
Used a lot, kinda easy pattern to find way to once understand things, or even just intro'd to fig.8,9,10 type builds etc. (Life on a Line)
But is nice to see formal recognition from reputable source, with ratings, etc. and even in a rope that may be more troublesome in B'Fly use.
>>also a fair B'Fly alternative to have in kit.
 
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  • #273
WOW, but rope is such a good, flexible utility, quick tool to use to repeated targets etc.; that was worth making and paying for as a real game changer w/o it !!! Nothing in the old world compares to it's quick utility, and then nor to as many uses either. Rope taught us to connect and many other mechanics when there was nothing else that could; so was formative to our intellect i think.
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Nip is an essential knotting element.
As frictions thru arcs etc. as the tension decreases thru the rope device, so does the rigidity. This allows a greater crushing rigidity to clamp down on a softer one. i think would want at least 3-4x more rigid rope part clamping down on a softer/fluffier one. So, not just matching force, nor a bit over, but overwhelming force/rigidity ratio. i always look at knots from perspective of varying rigidities of the interacting parts; who rules and whom gives way. Utility of rigidity in flexibles not much talked about(especially not like flexibility in rigids is), and more to nipping that would think.
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Within the microcosm of a knot i think i see:
Holding vs. Nipping a rope part :
Basic-rope-crossings-in-knots-holding-vs-nipping-rigidities.png


Varying and mixing the rigidities of rope parts:
even explaining if using 2 legged friction hitch of half load each leg, how the smaller diameter and stiffer cord;
has a greater Tensioned Rigid Density to grab into a softer, fatter, fluffier, even tho more tensioned host lifeline theory(F).
Changes-in-rigidity-factors-thru-simple-bight-to-allow-a-real-nip-compression-deformity-blockade-in-rope.png

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In rigids by cross-example would have the pressure of the vice jaws x 0-1.0 multiplier of jaw hardness for delivery against the 'victim' nipped in the vice(100# crunch with marshmallow jaws would not hurt too bad until jaws compressed rigid).
>>Even with iron jaws could still get slip inside sandwich unless jaws compressed into/key slotted the center or it came that way.
Rope, by varying "Tensioned Rigidity" dramatically, that then automate the denting/key slotting in a real nip
>>rope/flexibles self adjust correctly to many things that might other wise have to carve/chip/soften to reform to get same max result in other materials that are not so self adjusting, maximizing and equalizing etc. on the fly.
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So in flexibles example have tension pressure of the vice jaws x 0-1.0 multiplier of jaw hardness(that is native density rating xTension)
>>So xTension appears as force and rigidity, for a more squared effect in vice/nip when xTension is changed "Tensioned Rigidity"
(partially named for what i feel in leg 'soft tissue' during spasm...) .
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Examples in simplest Hitch type structures:
Rigidity-differances-for-nipping-in-simplest-hitch-structures.png

The greater tensioned rigidity to nip is best used thru a deformation of apex or arc for greatest applied force with that Tensioned Rigidity and ot's density of footprint.

Links:
ABoK Lesson# 0049/pg.015: Single hitch to tree
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ABoK Lessons 1594/pg.284: Single Hitch to deck peg, 1596 Single hitch to tree, 1601 Blackwall to hook
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ABoK Lesson# 1875/pg.313: Blackwall
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ABoK Lesson# 1432/pg.262: Sheet Bend tails to opposing sides
 
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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #275
:thumbup:
Always try to see the whole degrading tensions thru sections, to serve different purposes(not all 1 generic rope);
just separate parts already chained together type picture. If chain of rigid parts the logic would be ___________ etc...
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The Rigid Tension, in stacked LIINEAR nip sandwich/vise, rarely matches the nipping pressure thru that sandwich/vise rigidity
(even tho both calculated off of xTension) .
>>if nipping force applied thru linear rope parts MUST have nipping pressure <1 xTension, usually way less.
>>if nipping force applied thru radial rope parts MUST have nipping pressure 1-2 xTension(at that point).
Real-work-world-example-of-setup-of-rope-pull_-different-than-rigidty.png

The Rigid Tension, in stacked LINEAR nip sandwich/vise, does have a RADIAL nipping counter part of Half-Hitch loop (Sheet Bend, Bowline etc.)
radially nipping sandwiched rope parts, w/ RADIAL force, that MUST apply radial nip pressure to the 1-2 xTension rule as radially applied of course..
Half-hitch-radial-nipping-loops-types.png
 
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