Rope For Ghetto Fiddle Block?

lxskllr

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I'm putting together a ghetto fiddle block set with double sheave micropulleys, MBS7k#. I was thinking of using 16strand in the system, and then the thought of using promaster came to me. It's a weaker line, but I can splice that eliminating knots, and it's not like this would be used for extreme pulls anyway. Pretty much where you'd use natural crotch, but want a little more influence on where the pieces go. Opinions?

edit:
Oh, and what length? What would be a good length to get a lot of work done, but not have a mile of line to deal with that isn't getting used?
 
Nylon cloths line is pretty ghetto fabulous, but that’s a little more high brow than Manila, cotton is the purple pimp suit of rope.
I use Blue Streak in my set. I think it’s 65’ for 12’ of pull or something like that.
 
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  • #3
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of using promaster. Using a splice, it would have the same strength as knotted 16strand, it has a bit less stretch, twist doesn't matter in this scenario, AND I already have 150' I don't really use much. I can cut that in half, and have two available rope systems.

I bought the promaster and treemaster at the same time. Whenever I think I want to use a 3strand, I usually opt for the treemaster. It's obnoxious line to deal with, but I really respect it's strength and durability, so that's what I grab.
 
Pretty much where you'd use natural crotch, but want a little more influence on where the pieces go

You lost me with that sentence, fiddle blocks simply allow you to pull harder than you can by hand. Think going up rather than down, tipping trees over and lifting stuff. If you need more friction doing natural crotch just do more wraps. You'll want a rope that is easy to grab, preferably braided so it won't twist on you. You can use sticks/pipe lashed to the blocks to keep them from twisting but the micro blocks are too small for that. The length depends what you want to accomplish, i like longer lengths and you can coil up the excess, you can't really add length because of the blocks themselves. I carry some double blocks as a fitter, and since they only have some crappy 3/8 manila i brought in an older hank of arborplex, and with the blocks work well with that. Another cool trick is to add a handle by doing a marlinspike hitch, then you can get a much better purchase for pulls that you can walk backwards on.
 
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  • #5
You lost me with that sentence
Read "light duty". I wouldn't use anything other than 3, 16 or 12strand doing natural crotch. If it requires more than that, I'd be using hardware. IOW, the strength of the system only has to be ≥ 3, 16 or 12strand rope.
 
That's the thing I'm not understanding, fiddle blocks aren't needed at all using natural crotch rigging, it doesn't make sense. If you want a lightweight rigging system, you won't want to be using double blocks anyways since they rub the cheekplates if you only run one rope thru, and would be a nightmare to run that much rope to lower lightweight branches (not to mention using baby aluminum blocks not designed for shock loading). If you want to lift a load or tension a line, fiddle blocks are a tool for that. If you want to lower stuff, you don't need them at all, you need wraps to increase friction either in the tree or on the ground.

You can lower surprisingly huge loads natural crotch if you want, and if for some reason you are doing light natural crotch and don't want the wraps in the tree for a few heavier pieces, just add some wraps on a friction device on the ground. That way you can easily handle any load you want very quickly, switching to blocks when the loads are big enough you don't want to damage rope. I often won't use blocks at all until I'm really taking down bigger logs or have to lift a bunch, and will simply toss the line up above me thru a crotch i want to rig from and then take wraps at the bottom of the tree on a friction device. This is much faster than moving a block around everywhere, requires less movement in the tree, and still gives you the control you get when the ground is running the ropes. Just go clockwise with your wraps, especially with 3 stand. If you have a grcs type bollard, you can even pretension and lift lighter stuff, just be aware that you'll have to pull harder than you would with a block because of the increased friction.
 
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  • #8
That's the thing I'm not understanding, fiddle blocks aren't needed at all using natural crotch rigging,
The point is NC=light duty. I'm just trying to forestall people saying micropulleys are insufficient. I'm probably making assumptions that other people think the same as me. The ONLY point is light duty. If something requires more than light duty, I'll be using hardware aside from a possible exceptionally structured tree. IOW when I compare something to NC, I'm saying it's light and requires little, though possibly more than I can manhandle without help.
 
Also using a half hitch is a great trick to set a natural crotch "block" on a spar. If it's a featureless spar it will likely slide down, usually not a problem if you are ready for it, very handy in a lift. If it's above a small limb that couldn't possibly handle the load it'll be perfect, since all its doing is keeping it from sliding down, the load is on the spar itself. That way you can negative rig pieces very quickly as you work back to the trunk.
 
The point is NC=light duty. I'm just trying to forestall people saying micropulleys are insufficient.

I disagree with both of these statements, like completely. The point of nc is speed, ease, and simplicity, it is far more useful than lowering small limbs without a friction device. Blocks lower forces the rope sees since it spreads the friction more evenly and prevents abrasion, that's all. A block and it's choker are the most abused parts of a rigging system, it's seeing twice the total load of the rope, including the shock load. Without even getting into the lightweight aluminum construction part of a micropulley it's bend radius is always going to be smaller than the size of the limb, and bend radius is just as important if not more so than abrasion for different types of ropes. That's the reason why knots reduce the load capacity of ropes so much, it's the bend radius.
 
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  • #11
:shrugs: That's fine, but I'm probably not gonna do it. If I have weight, I want it on the main stem. I can foresee some big oaks or something I'd put weight into a crotch, but otherwise I want it on decent hardware.
 
And you can do that with natural crotch too! Simply use a limb to change the direction, and add your friction at the base. In other words, with the right rope, you don't need to use blocks everytime, you can simply toss the rope over a limb and go to work. You can go thru multiple crotches to spread the load, literally anything you can do with blocks you can do natural crotch with the exception of heavy lifting up, which is very rarely needed anyway. You don't have to do your wraps right there in the tree if it's not convenient, you can do them anywhere. You can also set your rigging lines from the ground if you are natural crotching them, and use other crotches as redirects as needed. It's arguably the most versatile rigging technique we have in the tree, and is undeniably the quickest.
 
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  • #13
This is getting in the weeds a little. I'll tell you what inspired this. I've been thinking about fiddle blocks for a long time. All the way back to when I started this. I opted for the maasdam as my MA solution due to price and practicality for purposes, but I kept looking at pulleys, and thinking about what I could with them. Yesterday...

Mike and I had to remove a limb that was overhanging a barn. The tree was a few feet from the structure, and the roof was weak and historic. We simultaneously tip and butt tied it. Mike freed the butt, and that allowed the tip to come towards the tree missing the roof, and we lowered it from both ends. Great! However, that was just a fortuitous setup. It could have just as easily hit the roof if it wasn't setup the way it was. For THAT kind of scenario, you'd want to haul the tip back before freeing the butt, hence the ghetto fiddle block. It's for minor lifting and hauling, and will cost me about $100 all in aside from the rope to feed the system. It doesn't have anything to do with natural crotching. That's was just an analogy; something to compare the forces I was talking about to. A poor analogy perhaps, but just an analogy.
 
Ghetto fiddle block......
Porty on tree. Rope to tip.
No wraps, just a bight through the bottom loop around bollard. Basically a 180.
Instead of sweating the line.
Install rope grap above porty on working end leg. Hang pully. Loop tail over or through pulley and pull down. You just lifted or at least, tesioned the line to tip.
If you need more, hold line at porty one hand. Move grab up rope. Repeat.
I just use a cmi micro but dont close both cheeks. Hell, if you can over come friction brute force, use a carabiner.
You can also use a handled ascender for this as it is basically a rope grab.
I use this set up often for tensioning dynamic cable in the canopy. If not too must force needed.
 
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  • #16
I totally get it. I'm thinking about more weight than that though, or at least potentially more weight. I wouldn't want to be 25% into a process before I realize I'm in over my head and I can't pull what I think I can. Having pulleys in the system with a progress capture is fairly harmless insurance that the plan goes per plan. I guess I could bite off more than I can chew with that also, but I think it would be more visually evident.
 
So you wanted to know about pretensioning, hence why i didn't follow when you said nc, I'm with you now. Did you sweat the line to tension it first? That usually works really well. If you need more than that you can pretension with a fiddle block but it's about the tool of last resort. The traditional way would be setting a prussic, pulling it down to tension the limb, removing slack to your rigging device, then removing the fiddle blocks then prussic. Another way is to induce a side pull with the fiddle blocks to tension like you're sweating, add a pulley in between the friction device and the top block, tie off your rigging device, tension the fiddle, and simply tie off the fiddle block line to keep the tension. In other words your fiddle block is in the tree halfway up, and simply pulls the line sideways to tension it. While much faster it's still super awkward, and will pull harder because you're using angles better, but with less potential length.

This is why rigging bollards that rotate are king. A grcs has additional ma built in, but even an old school one that doesn't have gears beats a fiddle block. You can also move your portawrap to a truck and add a pulley in the base of the tree, and convert it to a ground run setup, simply driving the truck a bit to supply the pull. Likewise you can do the same with your fiddle blocks attached to another tree or something, but you'll fight it trying to rotate on you. The trick of course is to go old school, like sailor old school, and lash a pipe or stick on it so i can't rotate. You can also use your maasdam puller to provide the pulling in either setup too, as a separate system obviously.

The other really handy trick when doing limbs that way is to cut your notch aiming to the side and pull it around with a tag line tied to the tip, this is called swinging limbs over an obstruction. This requires far less pretensioning since the hinge helps hold it up until you're in the clear. The butt will swing to the obstruction, so keeping it closely rigged is key. This is my preferred method to do limbs over a house since there's complete control over the load, but you need the headroom. Without the headroom you need to drift the loads to the trunk, once again a bollard shines here.
 
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  • #18
Not pretensioning per se. Actually lifting the limb. I pretensioned what I did yesterday, but that won't be enough in every scenario. I'm talking about folding a limb vertically(or nearly so) so the limb tip is pointing to sky. Depending on tree, that'll be a reversed facecut, a simple undercut, or it won't work at all, and something else has to be done. The limb yesterday was 300#-500#. I'd have to see it all again to make a better estimate. If I had to haul it up vertical, I may be able to. What if it was 500#-1k#? No, I don't think I could, and I'd want something in place to take some of the load.
 
Ghetto fiddle block......
Porty on tree. Rope to tip.
No wraps, just a bight through the bottom loop around bollard. Basically a 180.
Instead of sweating the line.
Install rope grap above porty on working end leg. Hang pully. Loop tail over or through pulley and pull down. You just lifted or at least, tesioned the line to tip.
If you need more, hold line at porty one hand. Move grab up rope. Repeat.
I just use a cmi micro but dont close both cheeks. Hell, if you can over come friction brute force, use a carabiner.
You can also use a handled ascender for this as it is basically a rope grab.
I use this set up often for tensioning dynamic cable in the canopy. If not too must force needed.
Reg Coates showed a "Simple 3:1" with a 540⁰ wrap instead of a 180⁰.
Works well.
 
Not to downplay fiddleblocks and complex rigging, and with out seeing the tree under discussion, I'd like to place my foot in my mouth by stating the obvious.
More cuts= smaller pieces= less weight= less risk. When in doubt, chunk it out, is kinda my default.

Again, wasn't there, don't know. Every tree and situation is different in its own way. I've done some silly complicated stuff, only to be half way through it and realize I took the wrong path, but I'm stuck with what I've started.
 
Not to downplay fiddleblocks and complex rigging, and with out seeing the tree under discussion, I'd like to place my foot in my mouth by stating the obvious.
More cuts= smaller pieces= less weight= less risk. When in doubt, chunk it out, is kinda my default.

Again, wasn't there, don't know. Every tree and situation is different in its own way. I've done some silly complicated stuff, only to be half way through it and realize I took the wrong path, but I'm stuck with what I've started.
rigging can make hard work easy :)
 
i would get the best pulleys you can afford, also a swivel is nice because twists will reduce your pulling power alot and you don‘t need to unclip your pulleys to straighten your setup. omniblock 2,6 double is nice but not ghettoish :)

i want at least 12mm rope for a better grip and a soft rope, less friction.

i anchor the 5:1 with a machard friction hitch (ice tail is nice) on the rigging rope (instead of a knot) so i can tie-off the long line and reset the 5:1 when i need a longer pull. better than to carry 200‘ of rope around.

i am able to lift my 200kg anvil with my 5:1. when i need more pull i will use a 2:1 or more on the 5:1 to multiplicate the power..
 
If your overall load is under 2000lbs the Gibbs rope grab is nice too, and has a lot of uses. Not that the icicle hitch isn't friggin awesome.

There's another one for the non essential gear thread..
 
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