Mud Truck Thread!

[lumberjack]

I was going to put this in Gary's thread, but I figured I will have questions and whatknot, didn't want to detract from the road truck's valor.

Gary's thread revived my interest in getting my first truck back up and at it.

Back when I quit the truck I spent the summer rebuilding a 14 bolt rear end to replace the 10 bolt that finally crapped out (broke an axle twice, then broke the carrier). I finally got the axle under the truck, fresh disc brakes and all only for the tranny (700R4) to crap out.


Flash forward 4 years!

Today I got on cutting out the cats in the 1 ton, got one out and the pipe in, will finish the other tomorrow morning. On a quest for better mileage.

I got to thinking about it, if I rebuilt the transmission on the old truck I'm out 800-900 bucks and I'm still stuck with the 208 transfer case, rear slip yoke, and a friggin automatic (not mud wompin/towing/hell raising friendly).

I looked on our favorite site and found a lovely combo, wrong bell housing, but that's fairly cheap to swap out. I found an Advanced Adapters 27% overdrive unit mated to a SM465 tranny, followed by a sync'ed (rare, allows for shift on the fly) 205 transfer case. The transmission and case have been rebuilt, and neither them nor the OD have any miles on them.

This is fairly close to my "dream" setup from back in high school. I'd want to twin stick the 205 (allows shifting the axles independently from high to low, fairly easy) and the only other thing I wanted was a 203/205 doubler kit to allow for a wide selection of gearing. (106:1-3:1 21 foward gears, 8 reverse)

It's a few hours north of St Louis, I'm checking to see if it could be made to fit in the Civic's trunk as he won't ship .

I know I'll need new drive shafts, but to get the tranny mated up to my current 305 engine (and be able to later swap to a 350) and get the yokes spinning I would need:

Small Block bell housing >$150
Pilot Bearing >$20
Flywheel >$100
Clutch Kit >$200
Hydro Master Cylinder and Slave Cylinder/ Hydro Throwout >$>200 I'm guessing?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260249971754&ih=016&category=33732&_trksid=p3286.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DK%252BD%26otn%3D3%26po%3DOp2%26ps%3D5 looks like it would handle the flywheel/clutch issue, still leaving the throwout to be handled. I figure I could find this locally for a same or better deal.

What am I missing?

Before the truck was ready to go after the trany swap I'd need at least:
Swap 10bolt to 8 lug or better replace with Dana 60
Drive shafts
16" Wheels/tires

It might be a long row to hoe between school and work, but I figure it'll be fun assuming I finally get done and have my truck built how I, ME, CARL wants it done.

Dad of course is being his usual ass of a self when it comes to playing with the truck. He is the same person who paid $2k to have the 305 rebuilt by some dude his friend knew. Dude had the truck for 3 months (part timer) and ended up forgetting to torque down the oil pan (oil leaked from rear seal, nothing too serious but dangit boy!). He could have had a fresh 350 dropped in for the same or less money, in under a week and been better off.


Anywho, since I had to endure a short lecture from him tonight when I was just trying to make sure I was thinking the clutch through, I'm bouncing my ideas off ya'll and am not going to be talking with him about it anymore.

 

[Al Smith]

Oh Lawdy if you mention mud and trucks in the same sentence it reminds me of how many times I've been mired in .I've stuck anything that is possible to stick including a few dozers .

Enjoy yourself but mud and Al Smith don't fit in the same sentence .

 

[stehansen]

Al, I used to have an old aircraft carrier arrestor cable to pull out the caterpillars. That way you could be a couple of hundred feet away on solid ground with the other cat.

 

[MasterBlaster]

How did you handle that heavy sucker???

 

[lumberjack]

Something we would do is use a length of chain and put a tire between two of the lengths.

The bead holds the rubber from flying appart, the rubber acts like a big shock absorber.

While the truck will be built with the premise of playing in the mud (it's what we got around here) the idea is to keep it versital and quasi practical to serve as a backup for my 1 ton, or for a truck to run errands in.

 

[Al Smith]

Not a derail but you can't talk about mud-runner trucks without mentioning the fact they do get stuck,I mean really stuck .

A big giant snatch strap works pretty good even better than a tire .You change all that potential energy to kinetic when you reach the end of the elasticity in those things .

I once,believe it or not shook loose a 4 wheel drive F-250 ,trailer and all with a Ranger using a chunk of one inch 3 stand nylon . On the other hand I've pulled steel cables in two with a dozer and broken numerious chains .Once a 3/4" on the back of a D7 pulling a twin engine pan scraper . I couldn't push the damned thing because the Cat had an angled Rome clearing blade on it at the time .

 

[Frans]

Something we would do is use a length of chain and put a tire between two of the lengths.

HA! That is a little known trick which works great! I have been able to yank out a fully loaded chip truck with a small ford 2x2 ranger doing that.
Didn't know that anyone else knew about that trick.

Works like a rubber band. Accelerate, hit the end of the cable/chain and POP! the stuck truck leaps out of the hole.
Yanking with a straight cable, the puller truck hits the end of the cable and comes to an abrupt stop with just a little bit of yank which rocks the wheels of the stuck truck.


Each fall or spring Frans gets stuck at least once. One of the major life goals I have is to NOT get stuck, but somehow...it always happens.

 

[lumberjack]

In talking with the seller it seems that all chevy bell housings are the same, differences in the clutch/ect.

He's measuring to see if it can be disassembled and fit into my trunk.

 

[stehansen]

How did you handle that heavy sucker???

Drag it with the pickup to the field. Then you pull it from the middle with the rescue tractor as close as you dare to the stuck tractor. Then you would need several guys to get one end of it over to the stuck tractor. That was the worst part of it was that it was so heavy and stiff. Once we didn't have help so we put a rope from the rescue tractor to the stuck tractor, around the drawbar pin of the stuck tractor and then back to the cable and pulled it up that way. Like pulling your climbing line into place with some zing it. We were farming riverbottom ground and after a flood we would go in and scratch the surface of the ground up before the weeds started growing. Then plant a crop of lima beans into the flood moisture. The cable belonged to our landlord and I left it down there when I left the place. Probably sitting in the weeds now.

 

[sawinredneck]

Yes Carl, all Chevy's use the same bolt pattern, it's the flywheel diameter that can get you.Sometimes the clutch depth can be a problem, but not often.
Switching over to a manual is a PITA! I would go with as much stock linkage as you can, parts availability and they are bullet proof. Hyd. clutches are nice for daily drivers, but this thing will need some beef.
Loose the Dana 44 front as soon as you can and get a 60 to replace it, stick with the 14 bolt on the back, you can't break them.
You will need new brake lines with the axle switch, trust me, just buy them.
A solid locker in the rear isn't a bad thing, but look at the "Tru trac" or simialer for the front. I like the Tru trac because it's gears, no discs.
You will also need new wheels and tires with the axle swap, I like 16" better than the 16.5" because the bead lock on the smaller ones works better. Then gears front and rear, 4:10 up to 36", anything above that, well..............
You do all of that, well................... Then we have a new can of worms.

I would seriously encourage you to look for a turbo 400 with a matched T-case, but thats me. You want to go mudding, not rock crawling the extra t-case is just another part to break. And you will be breaking LOTS of parts!
That 305 won't move that truck, much less move the tires fast enough to clean them for traction.

 

[SkwerI]

Carl, for all that work and money, why not just buy a 3/4 ton truck? Pickups are cheap right now and it sounds like you're planning on spending a huge amount of time and money building up that little truck into something it isn't. Most likely you would be better off starting out with something closer to your ideal truck.

 

[sawinredneck]

Carl, for all that work and money, why not just buy a 3/4 ton truck? Pickups are cheap right now and it sounds like you're planning on spending a huge amount of time and money building up that little truck into something it isn't. Most likely you would be better off starting out with something closer to your ideal truck.

You are right Brian, but he is young. This truck has memories and means something to him, remeber that years ago?

Either way, i's going to cost a fortune to build, and twelve more fortunes to keep running.
Not sure how I would know anything about it

 

[lumberjack]

I'm leaning towards a hydro throwout bearing, no hole for mud or sediment heavy water to get in and trash the clutch.

Regarding the extra T case, I don't see it breaking anytime soon, an all gear 2 speed gear box is more bomber (for it's application) than the 465 in front of it. The extra reduction feeds into an even stronger, all gear 205 reduction/transfer case. The end engine is a 350 or 383, under 450ft-lb of torque, no nitrous, 87 octane friendly.

I want to be able to get around town, hill climb, get through the mud (not a flogger, but a well equipped all terrain truck). Having the ability to split gears with the 27% OD and split them again with the 205's sync'd 1.96:1 (effectively a 43% under drive.)

The current 14 bolt has 4:10's, there is a carrier break between them and the 4:56's. The 43% under drive gives me the option to make the stronger 4.10 gears into an effective 5.86:1, with the ability to get the engine's RPM's back down for better high speed economy.

Re the 305, even with the 2:73 (not a typo) gears the truck came with, the 305 would gleefully spin all four 31" Mud Kings in 4lo (2.6:1, a most terrible 29:1 "craw" ratio)

Brian, it is my ideal truck, although I'm not fond of the colour. Money wise it should be a one time investment for the most part, and I don't see the cost getting to "crazy" considering what the end result would be, the pride I will have in it, and the good times I've had and will have in it. Lord, the rifle I traded for the dump trailer cost $5600 to build. I'm getting the rifle back, which was the main condition of the trade. I bought that rifle in 06, finished it in 08, but never for more than two weeks was it unserviceable. Another personal benefit would be finishing something I started the summer of 2003.

 

[GASoline71]

Try to find an NP205 transfer case. They are a tad on the heavy side, but are gear driven (not chain driven) and are frickin' bulletproof.

Gary

 

[lumberjack]

Gary, it's already got a 205 .

The only thing the 203 is for is it's gear driven reduction gearset. The 203's gear box/adapter goes where the black adapter is between the tranny and the 205, it will increase the length slightly, but not drastically. If I could get the drive shafts identical in length and configuration, that would be a nice touch as well.

 

[Al Smith]

Carl, for all that work and money, why not just buy a 3/4 ton truck? Pickups are cheap right now .

---and I believe by fall or winter they will be cheaper .All those "cowboy limosines " will get traded for puddle jumpers .Most that are fairly new are cherries too .The only thing they've ever hauled were a set of golf clubs .

On the other hand a mudrunner or hot rod truck is a fun project .You can't put a price on that .

 

[GASoline71]

Gary, it's already got a 205 .

The only thing the 203 is for is it's gear driven reduction gearset. The 203's gear box/adapter goes where the black adapter is between the tranny and the 205, it will increase the length slightly, but not drastically. If I could get the drive shafts identical in length and configuration, that would be a nice touch as well.

Doubling up the 205 and the 203 T-cases is a great way to get a good crawl ratio. Doesn't hit your wallet as hard either... Good plan Carlto!

Gary

 

[sawinredneck]

I'm leaning towards a hydro throwout bearing, no hole for mud or sediment heavy water to get in and trash the clutch.

Regarding the extra T case, I don't see it breaking anytime soon, an all gear 2 speed gear box is more bomber (for it's application) than the 465 in front of it. The extra reduction feeds into an even stronger, all gear 205 reduction/transfer case. The end engine is a 350 or 383, under 450ft-lb of torque, no nitrous, 87 octane friendly.

I want to be able to get around town, hill climb, get through the mud (not a flogger, but a well equipped all terrain truck). Having the ability to split gears with the 27% OD and split them again with the 205's sync'd 1.96:1 (effectively a 43% under drive.)

The current 14 bolt has 4:10's, there is a carrier break between them and the 4:56's. The 43% under drive gives me the option to make the stronger 4.10 gears into an effective 5.86:1, with the ability to get the engine's RPM's back down for better high speed economy.

Re the 305, even with the 2:73 (not a typo) gears the truck came with, the 305 would gleefully spin all four 31" Mud Kings in 4lo (2.6:1, a most terrible 29:1 "craw" ratio)

Brian, it is my ideal truck, although I'm not fond of the colour. Money wise it should be a one time investment for the most part, and I don't see the cost getting to "crazy" considering what the end result would be, the pride I will have in it, and the good times I've had and will have in it. Lord, the rifle I traded for the dump trailer cost $5600 to build. I'm getting the rifle back, which was the main condition of the trade. I bought that rifle in 06, finished it in 08, but never for more than two weeks was it unserviceable. Another personal benefit would be finishing something I started the summer of 2003.

There is a split on the gear ratios, but I think? it's Richmond, that has a set that will fit the smaller pumpkins.
I ran 33's with 3:42's for years. As soon as I went to 35's, it was gutless!! I went with 36x9.5's and 4:10's and it was pretty happy.
I cannot stress enough how much things will change with tire size, and you will want bigger tires (don't ask how I know)! And they will EAT horsepower like nothing you have seen!

 

[lumberjack]

The planned tire size is 42x15x16 although if the suspension/drive shafts work out like planned I'll be able to run anything from a 31 to a 54, although the speedometer will be off. I figure after the tear down/cleanup the front axle will be the first "big" thing to get, along with the suspension worked out front and rear. Now I have a rolling, reinforced, clean chassis. Now I can finalize which engine and start saving for it while I build the cross members/skid plates for the tranny in the approx correct position and get the drive shafts on the way. Now I have the money for the engine, it goes in and I have a powered chassis. Buy some smaller "street" tires (cheap) while I finalize the "big" tire size. If the suspension works out I'll be able to run nearly anything in diameter from 10-20" wide, although it'd require a wheel with the correct backspacing. While I'm saving up for the big tires/wheels I'll have a fun "normal" truck that's a huge sleeper. Put in/on the roll cage, bumpers, sliders, interior, ect now, if I haven't already while I start getting the body straightened back out and getting ready for it's paint. Spray the paint, flip a switch, throw on the "big" tires and I'm ready to romp.

That's hugely tentative, but it's a general outline of what I'd like. I've already got the bags for the suspension, had them for 7 years or so. I believe 14" of travel, 7-7500lbs capacity at 100 psi, from Firestone. Even have two spares. The theory on the suspension (rear at least) is to run them on a caviler arm to increase the loading on them by setting them at a mechanical disadvantage for greater axle movement. The front is where it will get tricky. Anywho, this is just a theory, we'll see what happens in the end.
Regarding the gearing, my intent is to stick with the stronger 4.10's I already have and take advantage of the OD and UD units that are already going to be there. Using those three things I can vary my effective rear end ratio from 2.99-4.10-5.98-8.2. I'm planning on at least a healthy 350 if not a 383. I figure 4.10's will be fine, but the other ratios will cost me nothing. I'm planning on an Arb locker for the front and rear.

Got the truck home and the skin washed today. Still need to clean the undercarriage, bed, and engine compartment before it goes in the shop.

This is mainly for me, but feel free to comment. All these engines are dressed out the same with the exception of the first and next to last lacking an intake. I need to see what kinds of torque I'll be getting with each and use that to help plan the engine choice.

$2659

$4180

$5288

$5508

$6052

 

[sawinredneck]

I like $5288, tourqe is youre freind!

 

[lumberjack]

That's the HO454

A slight snag with a big block would be chasing down new bracketry for the accessories.

 

[sawinredneck]

That's the HO454

A slight snag with a big block would be chasing down new bracketry for the accessories.

Yeah, but it's a niceeven tourqe band, less chance of breaking things.
What accessories? Power steering should be the same, then get a one wire aftermarket alternator, done.

 

[lumberjack]

Think the alternator bracket would switch over?

I'm also still flirting with the idea of AC.

 

[sawinredneck]

The alt. bracket is great in theory, but the bends are wrong as I have found at least.
Don't ask me about A/C, I don't know why, but Chevy A/C bracketry ALWAYS wins against me It really seems easy enough, but it never works?

 

[GASoline71]

It's just easier to find all the brackets off of a big block, then tryin' to make the small block brackets work. Trust me...

Anyways... all the brackets are available in the aftermarket Carlito.

Gary