First MS 441 rebuild...

[sawcollector]

I just finished up this saw this afternoon:

This is the first time I have pulled one down to do a top end job. It is certainly more complicated and a bit tricky compared to a MS 440 or 460. The stratified scavenging design adds to the complexity and so there are more bits to deal with. This saw has the new anti-vibe springs instead of the annular buffers that were always used in the past, so that actually makes it easier. This is the first STIHL in a long time that has the carb and manifold bolted to the cylinder, and the tank and handle isolated without the carb attached, so it just feels different working on it. I don't care for the throttle cable design, it is a bit of a pain to hook in and out. But all in all now that I have done one it won't be so bad next time.
This saw was used hard and had been dropped or had a tree hit it as it had a bent up handle and brokenchain brake lever, and some of the fins were broke off the top of the jug. The piston was carboned up and a little bit dull indicating some dirt ingestion, but still had most of the machine marks, but I replaced the cylinder and piston as a set. The crank was OK, and it pressure / vac tested OK after the new cylinder was on. I opened up the muffler some and put a .66 jet in it instead of the .64. The main nozzle check valve, accelerator pump o-ring and part load jet all were working OK so I felt the carb was OK to try after cleaning. The diaphragm had a worn spot on the little round piece that rides on the inlet lever so I replaced it. Got it together and it tuned out nice at 13,500. I will try tuning it with a B&C tomorrow and make some cuts.
So my question to you folks is what do you think of the MS 441 now that it has been out for a couple of years? Is it a worthy replacement for the 440? And I don't know if you realize it or not but the 440 has been around for quite a few years, and the first 2 years it was out it had some problems that had to be dealt with to improve the over all quality of the saw, and it has been refined even more over the years.
What kind of problems have any of you encountered and would you buy a second 441 if need be?
Eddie

 

[Al Smith]

I've never ran one nor for that fact heard much good about them .

At the races last early spring in Chardon Ohio this was the saw they used in the stock saw contest .Not too impressive but then it was a factory tuned saw,stock muffler etc . so that could explain things .

One of the gents on another forum was going to do a radical modification on one but I've yet to hear the results on that .

All I can say is it's going to have to go a long way to replace an 044/ Ms 440 .

However of fairly new models I've heard nothing but good regarding the 361.Fact is ,humorusly one guy said if I ever ran one I would never go back to my souped up 038 Mag . Well ,my reply,stranger things have happened . Too much old school and too stuborn to change ,I've been told .

 

[CurSedVoyce]

I've read nuttin but great things on them.. I was under the impression that that saw was also built for fire fighters in mind. I might be thinking of another saw. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Al Smith]

The question is ,where did you hear it from ?

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Thought I saw one of the recent saws that more came with the bar and chain set up for cutting roofs etc. I thought it was the 441. Sorry trying to remember here.

 

[SkwerI]

The only thing I've heard about them is that they have the power of the 440 with the weight of the 460. If you're going to buy a saw that weighs as much as the 460 then you might as well buy the 460.

The Stihl pro saws are great but too stingy on bar oil (not counting the PNW full wrap handle versions). I recently replaced the oilers on a 460 and 660 with the PNW high output pumps and it makes a big difference. The newest models (441 and 361) are even worse from what I've heard. Although the 361 has gotten wonderful reviews overall.

 

[sawcollector]

Al, A slightly modded 361 will really surprise you! And I love the old 038 saw. I have a very early model with the alloy tank and a full wrap handle, and a later model with the plastic tank that I cut with for fun once in a while. But the MS 361 is so smooth, easy to start, and runs so well that it isn't a fair comparison. The 361 has 4 closed ports, and the module varies the ignition timing based on RPM so it really does out perform older saws.
The 441 is supposed to be rated at about the same power as a 440 with a little more weight, but the scavenging makes it much more economical on fuel, and that translates to money in your pocket in the long run, so that needs to be considered in a comparison as well.
CSV, I don't think this saw was especially for smoke jumpers, but I think there is a version in testing that will use an electronic carb so that no tuning will be needed for dirty filters or altitude changes, and that would be a benefit for guys moving up and down the side of a mountain trying to control a burn.
I have a MS 280 IEM that has the electronic carb and it works great. We probably won't need a screwdriver at all one of these days!

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Doh.. The 460 was what I was thinkin... sorry

 

[Reddog]

441

I like mine, and yes it seems to be a good upgrade from the 440.
The power is closer to my muffler modded 046.
The oiler on the 441 is the same as the 460.
The anti vibe is better than the others.
And it runs on less fuel than the 440 or 460.
The dealer here has sold quite a few and has not any real problems.
Seams like I have typed all this in the past.

http://gypoclimber.com/showthread.php?t=10103&highlight=441

 

[Old Monkey]

I'd like to get one but cannot justify it as I have a 440 and a 460 that are both running great.

 

[High Scale]

I really like the 441, the spring anti vibe makes a real difference to the feel of the saw.

 

[sawcollector]

I like mine, and yes it seems to be a good upgrade from the 440.
The power is closer to my muffler modded 046.
The oiler on the 441 is the same as the 460.
The anti vibe is better than the others.
And it runs on less fuel than the 440 or 460.
The dealer here has sold quite a few and has not any real problems.
Seams like I have typed all this in the past.

http://gypoclimber.com/showthread.php?t=10103&highlight=441

Sorry Reddog, I guess I should have done a search first...
Anyway thanks for the comments from everyone, I hope the 441 does turn out to be a worthy successor to the 044.

 

[Reddog]

Sawcollector, I was not razing you. I just was getting a laugh out of all the ones saying they had never heard and thing good about them.

I have not needed to tear into mine, so it was nice to read what you have encountered.

 

[Al Smith]

Yes but you have to remember most of us are refering to the somewhat recent classics as a comparrison ,such as the Stihl 038 Mag ,044 and Husqvarna 272 .Anyone would admit those are tough shoes to fill .

Again I must admit at having no first hand knowledge of the 441 but I can comment on the other 3 .Then too different people view things differently also .Just opinions,nothing more nothing less .

 

[SkwerI]

Al, Husky is about 2.5 generations past the 272 these days. About 10-12 years ago it got replaced with the 371, which morphed into the 372 and has been the industry standard 5 cube saw for many years. It's not the same motor as the 272 (I think).

The 372 is in it's final days and is getting gradually replaced with the 575. But the 575 has the same issues as the Stihl 441, too heavy and not quite as much power. Sure it's smooth, but it's not fast.

 

[Al Smith]

Al, Husky is about 2.5 generations past the 272 these days. About 10-12 years ago it got replaced with the 371, which morphed into the 372 and has been the industry standard 5 cube saw for many years.

Ha,you kinda have to remember I'm kind of in the dark ages about this stuff . A lot of this stuff locally has some age on it .Fact is last summer I repaired a 181 and 281 Husky for a guy that still uses them on a regular bassis as well as a 272 and a shed full of Stihls .Rather half a shed full because the other half in my shed waiting for me to doctor on them .

Old saws,if you keep replacing parts you can really stretch the life span .However you must have a lot of them in order to have a few that work regularly .

 

[woodworkingboy]

The Stihl pro saws are great but too stingy on bar oil (not counting the PNW full wrap handle versions).

A quick fix might be using winter viscosity oil all year round, though probably not the ideal. Some "experts" recommend doing that as a rule in general...better chain penetration they say.

 

[Ed L]

Al, Husky is about 2.5 generations past the 272 these days. About 10-12 years ago it got replaced with the 371, which morphed into the 372 and has been the industry standard 5 cube saw for many years. It's not the same motor as the 272 (I think).

The 372 is in it's final days and is getting gradually replaced with the 575. But the 575 has the same issues as the Stihl 441, too heavy and not quite as much power. Sure it's smooth, but it's not fast.

The 575 is already dead and gone...replaced by the 576.
Makes me glad I picked up a 2171.

Ed

 

[stig]

Now I've put mine through a full year of logging. During that year I've made about 800.000 boardfeet, if I figure it correctly.
( 2000 cubic meters)
This is the saw that I use for limbing big hardwoods and for felling and bucking anything else, so it runs a LOT of hours in a year.
I have had to replace one of the spring mounts, nothing else.
I love that saw and will definitely get another like it, if a falling tree kills this one.
On paper it has less power than the 460, which my apprentice runs, but the 441 seems to have a wider spectrum of torque, so it evens it out.

 

[sawcollector]

Thanks for the info Stig.
What is the weather like for you on average? Real cold to real hot or moderate?
Are using the open mesh filter of the heavy duty?
Is the saw stock or have you opened up the muffler any?
And one last question, I promise. How is the fuel consumption, as good as they say?
Thanks,
Eddie

 

[stig]

The weather here is what you'd probably call moderate. cool summers and not too severe winters anymore.
I use a mesh filter with the felt cover.
I have not modified the saw in any way.
That whole modification thing seems to be an american thing.
I've never come across anybody here who modify saws, except maybe some logging show competitors.

Questions: when you modify the muffler to gain power, don't you get more decibels too?

When you play around with a stock car engine and turn it into a racing engine, you end up with a stronger engine, but one with a much shorter lifespan. Isn't that the same with a modded saw?

I mean, nothing comes for free in this world, if you could get more power out of a saw engine with no sacrifices, you'd think the factory would already have done that.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Yes, a modded muffler is louder.

 

[SkwerI]

Stig, you're not getting it. Our saws aren't the same as your saws. The muffler modification is only to eliminate the EPA mandated restrictions which create heat build-up and loss of power. The EPA has limits on noise as well as emissions, so the equipment manufactuers have to modify their equipment sold in the US in order to meet those restrictions. Those restrictions are NOT in the interest of longer life or better performance, but to meet a government regulation. Removing those restrictions from the saw will allow it to run cooler, stronger and last longer. Just like your saws which aren't subject to idiotic EPA regulations.

As far as the engine porting, etc, I'll let Jay respond to that.

 

[woodworkingboy]

Stig, I'd like to take a stab at answering your questions.

The question about decibels is pretty much a given, the saw gets louder.

How much is dependent on how the muffler was altered. A straight shot directly out the muffler through a large opening would be the loudest. Variations of opening up the muffler, for example increasing the size of the hole, but exiting out the side of the muffler, or some still existing internal baffle, will have more sound reducing effect. The degree of sound increase is also influenced by other modifications to the engine.

The life span of a modded saw, shortened or not? Kind of a complex question, given that there are differing degrees of modifying. I think that is is good to remember that the cylinders and pistons on saws are mass produced items. My impression is that there is a certain amount of conservatism that goes into the design, for that reason. It would be problematical and more costly to make the same profit making cylinders and pistons, but produced in such a way as to yield higher performance. The control qualities would need to be stricter, with more precise manufacturing as the standard. What the manufacturer won't do, I can do to some extent. I take that as basically a green light to make some performance enhancing improvements, without sacrificing the lifespan.

Balance is important, if you are generating more heat by raising compression, than you want to have the exhaust port widened to remove the heat better, and stay within what are the recommendations, or your own findings, on just how high you can go with compression before the potential for damage also increases significantly. Some people make their own heads for cylinders, the intention being more power producing combustion, and along with that goes design for good cooling. Some saws are more tolerant than others, a beefier connecting rod, a better made cylinder, etc, there are differences.

I think that a lot of guys seriously into working saw mods, also take maintenance into consideration to prolong the life. Breaking down the saw to check ring wear, remove carbon, it can have a very beneficial effect in the long run. Gas/oil mix ratio is probably more an important consideration with mods, using synthetic or petroleum base oil, not by a long shot that you will find everyone agreeing on what is best. It's still a very open, if not somewhat controversial subject, it seems. It's just that people doing mods are considering these aspects as well.

Lastly, how you operate a saw is a factor too. Run a modified saw through some big oak with a dull chain, and you can probably fry the engine in a few minutes, whereas a stock one will probably not nearly be so harmed, if damaged at all. Consider the stresses on a lightened piston running at 180psi compression, the heat buildup that will be occurring with improper use like that, something has got to give. The thing is though, your not supposed to run a saw that way, modified or not.

Basically, my impression from what I've read, and my experiences with my own saws, is that a properly modified working saw; meaning the lifetime being also a consideration when doing the changes, and subsequently given wise operation and good maintenance, doesn't have it's life shortened.

I'm certainly open to different interpretations, however.....still very much learning here.

 

[stig]

Very interesting!!
Of course I hadn't thought of the EPA, but then we have our own environmental agencies here.
I used to run my 260 and 460 with catalytic exhaust, I don't know what it did to the power, but once the saw was warm, you could hardly smell the exhaust. Great.

This could be the start of a new thread, it's something I've been wondering about for some time.
There is a big difference between a modded saw being used for record cuts at a logging show and a saw running 8 hrs a day in hardwood, like mine do.
Back in the 70-80es when we cut a lot of smallish conifer for pulp, we'd toss the limbing saws out every year and buy a new one. Running at constant high RPMs wore them out fast. Nowadays I can make a 70 cc saw last about 3 years.