Charging By The Hour: Rates For Crew/Equipment

[SouthSoundTree-]

Pruning is different than removals.

Sometimes, I shake branches and have the groundworker next to the homeowner, communicating with the Sena comms. Alternately, I have the custy use their phone, which bluetooth's into my helmet.

 

[Mick!]

I don't get it, what's your point Sean?

 

[lumberjack]

The end goal isn't clearly known when he goes out for a bid.

Along the same lines of why I like removals. There's no discussion required, either the tree is there or it isn't.

 

[Altissimus]

...shaking branches for customers who are watching on their deck then approve the cut ... I phased that out long ago as a collosal waste of time. I guess if the hours are covered $$$ all good then.

 

[cory]

It can be problematic even with perfect comms cuz most custys don't know what is best for them re the tree. Sure, if there is a particular limb that is bugging them, then great, ID it, but those limbs were probably already known before the climber went up. Usually if a custy starts specifying limbs, the finished product will be inferior to if they stayed out of it.

 

[Altissimus]

Yep

 

[Limbrat]

I am exceptionally lazy though.

And honest!

 

[sotc]

If the customer's like that at the bid I just tell them if they want to point and shoot we can do that at an hourly rate

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

If the customer's like that at the bid I just tell them if they want to point and shoot we can do that at an hourly rate

Yes. This. I'm talking about a water front, view property with the neighbors house newly painted yellow. Open the view as much as possible, without opening it too much. I don't even know how many branches are on a 100' cedar...100-150. I'm talking about removing 4, and reducing 4, and trimming up dangling cedar stuff of the bottom of a few branch with hand pruners. Far less than on a typical canopy raise. I don't mind wiggling branches on view work. Less work for the same hourly.

The guy calling me on his phone was regarding some pruning and hardware installation in two 130' doug-firs for some crazy spendy Delta HAM Radio antenna so he can talk to people around the world more clearly.

If they pay even half my hourly rate, I'll read books to their grandkids, especially if they give me props on local social media. I'll even read books to kids at 1/3 of my tree hourly.
You guys use NextDoor.com?

 

[sawman]

im picking up
what your throwing down

but I hate point and cut jobs.

 

[Mick!]

The end goal isn't clearly known when he goes out for a bid.

Along the same lines of why I like removals. There's no discussion required, either the tree is there or it isn't.

Oh right I get it now.
I won't reduce a tree by committee, it'll look awful. The odd branch shaking (never heard that description before, good one) is ok but I just get grumpier and grumpier until they give up.

 

[cory]

The odd branch shaking (never heard that description before, good one) is ok but I just get grumpier and grumpier until they give up.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

Applying a formula of estimated hours multiplied times a rate is easy to do. Establishing the rate for the individual team's productivity with specific iron, and accurately estimating are harder. Especially the latter. Especially, if you're somewhat of a perfectionist for low-impact, pruning and clean-up.

 

[Chris E]

I use hourly rates selectively, its a handy tool to protect our interests.

*All large hedges

* Some work involving vines, very difficult terrain/access or jobs where scope is hard to define.

* specific customers

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Mistletoe.....

 

[Evan Sussman]

We charge for mobilization based on round trip mileage.

I have hourly rates for 1 man, or 2 or more man crew.
Bucket truck has an hourly rate.

I've switched to firm numbers mostly. I had too many awkward moments after giving an honest estimate and going over slightly. I am a nicer foreman when I don't feel like the client is looking over our shoulders making sure we're worth our money.

If I can tell a client wants to be nitpickey I'll suggest hourly, or specify it well enough to limit my time investment, and put enough time on it to make sure I'll make them happy.

Some clients are happy with hourly, especially repeat clients and those who know its fair for both parties.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

What is a good response when people expect you to be able to provide a time estimate? Generally, I find it is useful for those jobs with lots of unknowns, therefore its hard to apply and estimated time x hourly rate = bid price, which is to a degree what they want. Crystal ball reading, it seems.

I don't think that its a tactful way by asking "how many/ many pounds of dead branches do you want removed from you tree?". Kinda smartaleck-y, but a good illustration that I can't tell how many dead, detached, dying, damaged branches might be in a 100' doug-fir that I've never worked on before much better than they can. Most of it can't be seen by either of us. I don't know who much they will weigh to move, chip, and transport. Obviously, I'm going to be much better at it than them, but I can't really know.

Its probably likely that I only look at 50% of cuts on removals, but 98% of pruning cuts, which are not placed willy-nilly.


I suggest to people that they can pay hourly for their priorities (ex. 1. canopy raise 10', 2. remove large obvious broken limb at 40', 3. prune out dead wood to the height climbed to achieve #2), or work with a budget (ex. average 2 hours "care" for 4 trees aka do what you can for these 4 trees in a day using your professional judgment, or specs like the first example, plus additional deadwooding of additional trees as time allows.

 

[sotc]

Shoot high. I try not to give both a bid and hourly because most people will try to use it against you at the end of the job. I make them commit one way or the other so they don't swing to the cheap side after the job.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

I'm too much of an optimist. The reminder to shoot high is good. I've got my most expensive single tree out on bid, now, $5k for a 6' cottonwood with a dead central leader and an easy 100' spread. I drive by it occasionally. I get to thinking, maybe its not as bad as I thought. Will I lose out on this established customer going elsewhere? Should I reconsider the price when I call to follow-up?

If I had more time to do more bids, and run the operation, I could more confidently bid higher. 24/ day, which is never enough.

 

[sotc]

Sounds cheap, wait it out

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

Yeah. Wait it out.

P.S. Chip brush on site. Leave logs onsite. Dump 6' x 60' spar will lay as it falls. Limbs over septic drain field on south side, neighbor's outbuilding under the west side, where all the critical rigging will occur. The drain field is pretty easy. Enough good rigging points for shed side. I bought a 5/8 Stable Braid for this, and storm work. Bomb the dead central leader and most of the wood. No bucket access or crane access.

So hard to establish market value on such a tree.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

We charge for mobilization based on round trip mileage.

Would you expand on this?

I make it apparent to the homeowner when they are interfering with the production, for both of our sakes.

 

[sotc]

Yeah. Wait it out.

P.S. Chip brush on site. Leave logs onsite. Dump 6' x 60' spar will lay as it falls. Limbs over septic drain field on south side, neighbor's outbuilding under the west side, where all the critical rigging will occur. The drain field is pretty easy. Enough good rigging points for shed side. I bought a 5/8 Stable Braid for this, and storm work. Bomb the dead central leader and most of the wood. No bucket access or crane access.

So hard to establish market value on such a tree.

Sounds more reasonable, still wait it out

 

[Evan Sussman]

Would you expand on this?

I make it apparent to the homeowner when they are interfering with the production, for both of our sakes.

I started off based on a spreadsheet I made using a TCIA guide for estimating your hourly cost. Basically you take your annual expense and divide it by your annual billable hours, and you have a beak even cost. Add profit, and you have a goal hourly rate.

For the mileage I initially took added up all of my fixed vehicle related expenses and divided them by estimated annual mileage. Then I figured out the cost per mile of fuel for each truck. Then I figured out the cost per mile of labor based on an average wage at an average speed such as 30 or 40 MPH.

Initially I came up with $1.25/passenger, and $2.00/driver and truck. It worked on an all day job, but when we had more than one job I was missing my daily goal because of the lower mobilization rate. I upped the rate to $1.50/passenger, $2.50/chip truck and driver, $3.00 bucket truck and driver. So for example, google maps says job site is 12 miles from "home" I double that for roundtrip and we have 24 miles. I need a 3 man crew with both trucks onsite. We have $7.00/mile x 24 miles = $168 mobilization charge. That same charge for just the two trucks with drivers, and no 3rd man would be 24 miles x $5.50 / mile = $132.

On long trips I can come down a little since our average speed usually increases, but then we often have to deal with traffic so I might not lower it. On the other hand, when I'm going a couple miles down the road I still charge $30-50 minimum since there is loadup time etc that needs to be factored in. Kinda discretionary.

When I got started I was bidding mobilization time based on time at hourly standard rates. It seems like it's easier for customers to understand it based on mileage for some reason, and they don't feel like I'm charging them for traffic. Unless it's time and materials I don't disclose my mobilization rates. I have not had a complaint about the charge. Well maybe once, and she complained about a minimum charge too, even though her work exceeded it. Some people just complain...

The goal initially was to cover cost, not necessarily making profit on the mobilization time. That way I knew cost was covered, and it helped with bidding competitively on long drives into other markets (30-60 mins 1 way). Then I reconsidered and while we don't necessary make the same profit on mobilization time, we generally still do make some, and it's a buffer for traffic etc.

 

[Mick!]

Crikey Evan, that's complex, I charge as much as I think the client will pay, so far so good.
I have to say I admire you guys with multiple crews and lots of costs btw.