ANSI, OSHA, CE, EN???

I have come to hate the friggin safety standards. I understand why we have them, but when they're impossible to figure out, what use are they? ANSI stds are voluntary - you can't be fined for breaking them. However, the mandatory OSHA stds are a secret. Just try and find them. I dare you. The ever-so-helpful ISA and TCIA only sell the ANSI stds, which you get a gold star for complying with, but what about the ones you can be fined thousands of dollars for breaking?!? Why don't they make those available?

CE and EN are European stds, which simply don't apply to climbers in the U.S.
 
Bounce said:
I have come to hate the friggin safety standards. I understand why we have them, but when they're impossible to figure out, what use are they? ANSI stds are voluntary - you can't be fined for breaking them. However, the mandatory OSHA stds are a secret. Just try and find them. I dare you. The ever-so-helpful ISA and TCIA only sell the ANSI stds, which you get a gold star for complying with, but what about the ones you can be fined thousands of dollars for breaking?!? Why don't they make those available?

CE and EN are European stds, which simply don't apply to climbers in the U.S.
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But they do apply to some of the equipment we wish to use here, Sean..therein lies the rub.

FWIW, the US Forest Service standards for climbing equipment accept both ANSI and CE tagged goods.
 
Bounce said:
I have come to hate the friggin safety standards. I understand why we have them, but when they're impossible to figure out, what use are they? ANSI stds are voluntary - you can't be fined for breaking them. However, the mandatory OSHA stds are a secret. Just try and find them. I dare you.
Click to expand...
I thought ANSI write the standards, and OSHA is the enforcers of those standards?
I don't quite get it either. The magic numbers in my head are always 5400 lbs for rope and webbing, 5000 lb for biners and hardware. :|:
 
ANSI standards are formulated by a committee of Industry representatives. OSHA makes its own regs but where specific regulations have not been established by OSHA that agency will fall back on ANSI standards. Neither are law. ANSI's are just what they claim to be STANDARDS- a set of benchmarks which have been deemed reasonable. OSHA "enforces" their regulations as if they were laws but as administrative regulations they are NOT laws and can only be given force of law with repsect to persons subject to OSHA administration. Most OSHA reps honestly think that that includes almost everyone but as a matter of law OSHA regs really only are PROPERLY applied to OSHA employees, persons bound by CONTRACT to observe OSHA regs and other persons who VOLUNTARILY grant OSHA enforcing authority.
 
So how did my old bosses get socked with fines during storm damage work while the city was in a state of disaster for safety infractions? Can an insurance company, or having worker's comp. make a tree company bound by contract to observe OSHA regs?
 
Jonny, Ther may have been a contract somewhere but have you ever heard the phrase "If you don't know and assert your rights you haven't got any"?
OSHA and just about every government agency proceeds upon the assumption that YOU are subject to their jurisdiction. Most of them really beleive it. They may even have been instructed in the "Cestui Que" Public trust. "The contract that is" People have to fight tooth and nail every step objecting that they are NOT volunteering to any contractual or voluntary jurisdiction. At this point part of OSHA jurisdictional claim on your old boss would be the fact that he paid their previous fines! It is a screwey and corrupted system.
I am a global warming skeptic-especially after the earth's mean temps dropped almost a full degree in 2007, but if there is global warming it probably isn't due to carbon emissions but might be generated by the friction of Thomas Jefferson spinning in his grave.
 
so justin, if osha shows up on my job today and takes photos of my one handing a chaiinsaw with one tie in and no steel toe boots. what would be my first move. hypothetically of course
 
FWIW, the US Forest Service standards for climbing equipment accept both ANSI and CE tagged goods.
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That may be Burnham, but the CE standards were developed by the European Union. By accepting CE and ANSI tagged goods, the USFS is simply saying they accept as valid both European and American safety standards. This makes good sense since both are well thought out standards of safety, but there is no requirement in this country to live by the CE standards. The CE mark is required on any product sold within the European union, and has no bearing on Americans. This is why most of the European mfgrs like Petzl put the CE mark on their products while American mfgrs like Weaver and Buckingham don't. Instead they put the ANSI label on their products because they are American companies who products are used primarily by Americans. Samson rope for example makes a version of Arbormaster specifically for sale in Europe that has the CE mark on it that you can't buy in the US. It's the same as the stuff we buy, but ours doesn't have the CE mark.

To hell with it all I say.
 
ANSI doesn't mean shit up here. CE is the rule of thumb. Is equipment judged b ANSI standards for the international comp or do they allow non US climbers to climb on CE tagged gear?
 
Bounce said:
That may be Burnham, but the CE standards were developed by the European Union. By accepting CE and ANSI tagged goods, the USFS is simply saying they accept as valid both European and American safety standards. This makes good sense since both are well thought out standards of safety, but there is no requirement in this country to live by the CE standards. The CE mark is required on any product sold within the European union, and has no bearing on Americans. This is why most of the European mfgrs like Petzl put the CE mark on their products while American mfgrs like Weaver and Buckingham don't. Instead they put the ANSI label on their products because they are American companies who products are used primarily by Americans. Samson rope for example makes a version of Arbormaster specifically for sale in Europe that has the CE mark on it that you can't buy in the US. It's the same as the stuff we buy, but ours doesn't have the CE mark.

To hell with it all I say.
Click to expand...

What I was trying to say is that by accepting both certification systems, we don't needlessly limit FS climber's choices of climbing equipment.

I agree, there is no requirement that US climbers live by CE standards...what I want is not to be limited to only ANSI standard gear. That was the way it used to be, and why we have added the CE to our accepted standards.
 
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