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ANSI, OSHA, CE, EN???

OTGBOSTON

punk in drublic
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Jan 18, 2007
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Tha Dirty Bean...Boston Massachusetts
I just finished reading all the threads on the buzz about the different ratings of saddles. Not only did I lose an hour of my life, I've got a headache and not alot of answers.

WTF is going on. Why would a harness be marketed to arborists but not fit our local safety standards? Why do all three of the local arb shops carry them?

Petzl makes plenty of harnesses that meet ANSI standards, why doesn't the sequoia?

looking for some insight without all the round and round double talk...thanks, G
 
B

BostonBull

Guest
Well I will say that the Euros have much stricter safety standards than the US when it comes to tree work. So I would think there endorsement would be held higher than ANSI?

All the double talk is because NOONE knows he answer and everyone has their own opinion on the subject.

Smoke an Onyx it will cure the pain!
 

No_Bivy

Treehouser
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Sep 2, 2006
Messages
6,002
IMO,...it's hog wash. 22kn is not good enough but 22.5 is? WTF!! I have climbed for 20 years. What's 50lbs? Petzl makes a great product....way stronger then the human body. A harness does not usually fail...only one that I've heard off( Todd skinner). To me ANSI has thier head in the sand......
 

OTGBOSTON

punk in drublic
Joined
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Messages
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Tha Dirty Bean...Boston Massachusetts
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6
IMO,...it's hog wash. 22kn is not good enough but 22.5 is? WTF!! I have climbed for 20 years. What's 50lbs? Petzl makes a great product....way stronger then the human body. A harness does not usually fail...only one that I've heard off( Todd skinner). To me ANSI has thier head in the sand......
Thanks John, I was aware of your position from posts at the buzz. How do you really feel about it;):lol:
 

No_Bivy

Treehouser
Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
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It's a tech weenie thing. Breaking strengths are not a good guideline. 5K is a lot, we eliminate a lot of usefull gear with that rule....it's a shame. 50 fricken lbs!!!
 

NickfromWI

King of Splices
Joined
Mar 30, 2005
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Snowless California
I have this funny feeling that there is a bigger difference between 22kN and 5000 pounds than most of us think. Why ELSE would it be a big deal. I'm wondering if life support things that are rated to 22kN aren't held to as high of quality assurance standards as the 5K pound stuff. It just doesn't make sense.

If it was apples to apples, ANSI should have no prob saying 22kN is way acceptable.

The other option is that it is just bureaucratic bologna. That could very well be the case, but I think there is more under the surface if we knew where to look.

I'm cool climbing on either. If I was a judge at a comp, I'd be happy to let 22kN pass....unless it was a piece of gear being used by a canadian!!! :/:

love
nick
 

No_Bivy

Treehouser
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Sep 2, 2006
Messages
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22kn held this fall. ANSI is a bit behind on technology:D

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No_Bivy

Treehouser
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Sep 2, 2006
Messages
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chalk bag tracer........:O

ok dude was insane...but still
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/B9jj_d0fH3k&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/B9jj_d0fH3k&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
 
T

TreeRhino

Guest
I think the difference has to do with the measurement itself. Pounds or kilograms is a unit of weight measure while a newton and therefore a kilonewton is a unit of force required to move an object of a certain mass. Put simply, think of weight as a static load and kN as shockloading. That being said, it is true that the Europeans do have far higher safety standards than the U.S. and I think it isn't a safety issue. However, when an organization is holding an event, like a climbing competition, They are bound by their insurers to abide by the laws of their jurisdiction. In this case, ANSI and OSHA standards and therefore the higher Kn rating.

Also, in Europe their standards are more targeted to a particular industry while here, the standards are blanket standards that apply to not only arboriculture but all other "work at height" occupations. So, a widow washer requires the same strength of fall arrest gear as a tree worker despite the fact that the forces encountered by each and the equipment we use are dramatically different.

Anywho, thats my understanding and opinion on the matter. I could be wrong. Hope i didn't just further muddy the waters.

All that being said, I just ordered a Sequoia to try out. Should be here later this week.
 

No_Bivy

Treehouser
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Messages
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I wish I had a dyno-meter to measure forces myself......could be fun. KN or lbs,.....mute point, when most times it's operator error, not gear failure.:O
 

No_Bivy

Treehouser
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Sep 2, 2006
Messages
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Todd Skinner, belay loop failure. Harness was VERY worn. 5yrs plus, with lots of use.
 
F

Frans

Guest
Its simple really, I dont know why you guys dont know. Y'all need to take some geography lessons maybe...

O.k. Here it is:

ANSI, OSHA, CE, EN

ANSI= is a small town in Alabama, and OSHA is their sister city in OshKosh. CE & EN are some kind of places over in Euro land so who the hell even knows what they use as standards? I mean come on Metric system? What the hell is that anyway? No wonder ANSI & OSHA don't trust them!
:|:
 
W

Wagnaw

Guest
The metric system? What the hell is that anyway? No wonder ANSI & OSHA don't trust them!
:|:
That's what I think it is. Someone was doing shock load testing with "human sized" weights, they rounded up to 5000 lbs causes 5000 is a nice round American number, and they went online to convert lbs to kN, which told them 22.24 kN. Then they went on lunch break. :D
 

No_Bivy

Treehouser
Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
6,002
That's what I think it is. Someone was doing shock load testing with "human sized" weights, they rounded up to 5000 lbs causes 5000 is a nice round American number, and they went online to convert lbs to kN, which told them 22.24 kN. Then they went on lunch break. :D
hey, I need a test dummy for my research....you in?:lol: friday......maybe a go...well see. Need some service hrs?
 

TC3

Headache !
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
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Location
Michigan
A city arborist will always have his (her ?) hands full with political crap.
Choose wisely.
 

Stumper

Treehouser
Joined
Mar 6, 2005
Messages
3,392
Location
Colorado
It shan't be long 'ere ANSI Z 133 is modified to acknowledge EU standards and 22kn rated gear. There IS a difference in ratings in pounds and Kn ratings when they are "equal" when converted. The diff is that kn ratings take dynamic forces into account while lbs of force is a technically a static measure. 5000 lbs was a nice, round, safe, but arbitrary number. ALL 22kn rated gear will almost certainly pass the 5000 lb tensile test (because gear is tested and rounded DOWN to the round number of kns below which no tested item failed.) The 15kn component level of some European saddles sets some heart to pitter pattering but it is NOT an obstacle to passing ANSI testing- The small side Ds on the original Ness Work Saddle (New Tribe) were rated at 2500lbs each-since they were designed to each support half the total load on the lanyard the Ness was ANSI tagged.
 
W

Wagnaw

Guest
you in?:lol: friday
Yeah I'm in. I have a test at 11:00 am, so we could meet you out there at lunch time. Maybe you could get in that crane job before we get there.

(Derail warning) Also, Camille just opened the saw she won... It's a rear handle Husky tree saw!!!! Like those 200T mods. Camille said you two should race em' :|:
 
T

top hopper

Guest
The small side Ds on the original Ness Work Saddle (New Tribe) were rated at 2500lbs each-since they were designed to each support half the total load on the lanyard the Ness was ANSI tagged.
My Ness isnt ANSI tagged.
 
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