R
RIVERRAT
Guest
Darin, you swallow a Rush Limbaugh pill? You sure your feeling all right?
J
JamesTX
Guest
My French in-laws rave about their socialised medical system. And, to tell the truth, it seems that they've received very good care (and very timely too) since I've known them.
I don't know if it is fair to compare health care today with health care of the 1960's or some other time period. Our care is much more advanced than it was 40 years ago. The guy in the article that Frans posted probably wouldn't have been around to get diabetes because his heart problem that necessitated the pace maker would have already killed him. So my point is I guess that at least he is around and is actually healthy enough to return to work, and that is much better than being dead. I think also another point in the article is that lifetime caps need to be raised. Ya think! Another point is that hospitals charge private payers way more than they do health insurance companies or the govt. This is crap, a private payer is at a disadvantage in this situation because he has already received the health care and at the time he was sick or injured most likely leaving him/her somewhat vunerable and at the mercy of his doctor's advice.
F
Frans
Guest
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #30
I honestly dont think we can look to our gov. reps. for the answer.
For them, it is all academic. They have the best health care in the world, so for them it is just a mind game.
Fact is, gov. sponsored health care is NOT socialized medicine, it is socialized medical cost management. Same as our police force, ambulance service, etc.etc.
i read here alot of 'pros' & 'cons', toward the idea of changing our health care industry.
I would say if you are the one footing the bill, you are for changing the present system.
If you are being paid for by an employer or the gov. , then you are against changing the present system.
What gets me, is the loud talk about patriotism. Patriotism means to be for the country you live in and support.
I dont see alot of actual patriotism in the congress or our 'representatives'. Or for that matter with most of the folks I am in contact with.
Just alot of finger pointing, endless debate, and arguing.
Meanwhile, Americans are living shorter lives, our health care system is broken, and just about every other segment of our society is sub standard compared to our own standards as well as every other country in the world. Minus the truly wretched third world countries.
But since when did we have to compare ourselves to say, Uganda?
I think this whole 'debate' about health care is bullshit. I also think that many of these problems could be easily taken care of if our gov. actually cared about the American people.
No, don't ask me for the solution, do I look like a congressman, or some kind of brainiac? No, I am a working guy who pays through the nose for damm near nothing. Oh, and the rates are rising every year. Yea, I am bitter, to the tune of 575.00 bucks a month bitter.
"While Rome burned, congress argued..."
-or something like that-
--Shakespeare (?)
For them, it is all academic. They have the best health care in the world, so for them it is just a mind game.
Fact is, gov. sponsored health care is NOT socialized medicine, it is socialized medical cost management. Same as our police force, ambulance service, etc.etc.
i read here alot of 'pros' & 'cons', toward the idea of changing our health care industry.
I would say if you are the one footing the bill, you are for changing the present system.
If you are being paid for by an employer or the gov. , then you are against changing the present system.
What gets me, is the loud talk about patriotism. Patriotism means to be for the country you live in and support.
I dont see alot of actual patriotism in the congress or our 'representatives'. Or for that matter with most of the folks I am in contact with.
Just alot of finger pointing, endless debate, and arguing.
Meanwhile, Americans are living shorter lives, our health care system is broken, and just about every other segment of our society is sub standard compared to our own standards as well as every other country in the world. Minus the truly wretched third world countries.
But since when did we have to compare ourselves to say, Uganda?
I think this whole 'debate' about health care is bullshit. I also think that many of these problems could be easily taken care of if our gov. actually cared about the American people.
No, don't ask me for the solution, do I look like a congressman, or some kind of brainiac? No, I am a working guy who pays through the nose for damm near nothing. Oh, and the rates are rising every year. Yea, I am bitter, to the tune of 575.00 bucks a month bitter.
"While Rome burned, congress argued..."
-or something like that-
--Shakespeare (?)
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
Damn 
. Health care is the basics, without it you could die. No matter what people say down there about how hard we're taxed up here or this or that know this:
A fellow I know who makes very little money, pays nothing for healthcare here, got hit by a car last night, he broke his leg a ambulance took him to the hospital, he will receive full medical care, the whole nine yards, and it will not cost him a single penny. Nothing, notta, zip, zero.
I don't feel our system is perfect by any means, but at this point and time it still works.
. Health care is the basics, without it you could die. No matter what people say down there about how hard we're taxed up here or this or that know this:A fellow I know who makes very little money, pays nothing for healthcare here, got hit by a car last night, he broke his leg a ambulance took him to the hospital, he will receive full medical care, the whole nine yards, and it will not cost him a single penny. Nothing, notta, zip, zero.
I don't feel our system is perfect by any means, but at this point and time it still works.
Old Monkey
Treehouser
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2005
- Messages
- 8,764
I would trade our system for yours. No question about it. Nothing is perfect, all you can try to do is better. We aren't trying to do better. We aren't doing anything but argue while the problems get worse.
F
Frans
Guest
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #33
I think their is an attitude that, 'if you are not smart enough to make enough money to pay for health care, then you deserve to not have it'.
Point is, even when you pay for health care, the costs keep skyrocketing and if you max out your coverage, you are s.o.l. and get booted out.
The ideal of the 'american hard working family' is to work hard, pay your bills, and be able to afford such things as a roof over your head and a reasonable standard of living.
But if your health care costs just by themselves takes away that house, and strips a family of everything they have, isn't that wrong?
Their is a reason that the forclosures rate has skyrocketed throughout America, and that the percentage of Americans living debt free is a tiny one.
Time and time again, I read reports that most Americans are living one paycheck away from being bankrupt.
Point is, even when you pay for health care, the costs keep skyrocketing and if you max out your coverage, you are s.o.l. and get booted out.
The ideal of the 'american hard working family' is to work hard, pay your bills, and be able to afford such things as a roof over your head and a reasonable standard of living.
But if your health care costs just by themselves takes away that house, and strips a family of everything they have, isn't that wrong?
Their is a reason that the forclosures rate has skyrocketed throughout America, and that the percentage of Americans living debt free is a tiny one.
Time and time again, I read reports that most Americans are living one paycheck away from being bankrupt.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
And I see Canada following that trend, I live in alot of debt myself. But as I've mentioned before I only indebt myself for things that are going to make money. Either way I'm in the game bigtime, and somedays I really wonder if it's all gonna be worth it or if I should just sell off and move into the boonies and be done with the craziness. Not a easy call to make espescially with a family.
Imo it's not right that a person can get sick/ill and lose everything they have worked for their whole life, that's not right. Your government has failed you, the only people your system is working for is the super rich and for people who are lucky enough to not get sick/injured.
Imo it's not right that a person can get sick/ill and lose everything they have worked for their whole life, that's not right. Your government has failed you, the only people your system is working for is the super rich and for people who are lucky enough to not get sick/injured.
Argue is what congress does OM. It's pretty much the only thing they do. But it's necessary IMO. It's the only way these differences can be worked out. As I understand it all the founding documents weren't just written out and approved. The Declaration of Independence being the exception. They argued at length over every word. Have you ever read the Federalist Papers? They go on for freaking forever about every little thing and phrase. I would have shot my self with glee if I was one of the Founding Fathers.
Do the doctors and other medical people in Canada work as govt. employees or are they contractors?
F
Frans
Guest
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #36
Just about everyone who effects the working folk are 'contractors' of the gov. these days.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
The nurses are employees for sure and I think the doctors kind of work like contractors, there's a billing structure/rate thingy for them I beleive. All I know for certain is nurses do well and doctors are rich. Lots of doctors around here live on the lake, on the lake in a nice house starts at about 1.5m and goes up from there.
Old Monkey
Treehouser
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2005
- Messages
- 8,764
Are there any shortages of doctors and nurses?
N
Newfie
Guest
There is in Massachusetts for sure because of the large percentage of "managed" care here. Hard to recruit doctors to practice here, because of piss poor compensation. Oddly enough, the ones who do come to practice here are from places like Canada and the UK where social medicine is the norm.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
I was just reading a article in the paper that was saying that they are going to try and get more agressive at recruiting nurses. It's a trade-off here, certainly doctors or nurses could earn more down in the states but most who are here are here because they like the lifestyle. Like I said all of the doctors I've known are not just well off they are rich, I guess it boils down to how rich they want/need to be.
Again I'll say healthcare and the availability of it is not even a concern for me at this point in time. If anyone is sick they can just go to the doctor, imo there's alot to be said for that. I just worry about escalating costs.
For all of you who say, oh well we have got the best doctors and nurses because they are paid so much. Think about it, they are paid so much and the average american can't afford healthcare hmmmm.
And like I posted in another thread, went to the doctor today. Walk in with no appointment 15 minutes seen the doc out the door. No charge.
I'm not trying to sound rude or anti-american (I've been to the states and actually have found you americans to be alot friendlier than most Canadians) but I'd be scared to live down there knowing that if myself or my loved ones became ill I'd be screwed.
W
Wagnaw
Guest
The main reason I'm for publicly funded healthcare is funding for prevention. Being a pre-med student, I am always in contact with people who work in the industry, and the huge complaint is prevention funding. For instance, here in the States, sewage treatment plants do not filter hormones and chemicals such as estrogen (which can lead to children with both sex organs) because there's no funding due to the fact that there's no money to be made by cleaning up the water. However, in Europe, where the gov't pays for health care, all sewage systems are set up to filter these pollutants because the gov't know that prevention is going to save EVERYONE money. The same motivation is seen in work force safety.
I think that if the gov't payed for health care, more money would go to protecting people and protecting the environment that houses the people. As disheartening as it sounds, there is alot less effort toward keeping people from getting sick when a company can make billions of dollars on a pill that corrects any number of preventable diseases.
I think that if the gov't payed for health care, more money would go to protecting people and protecting the environment that houses the people. As disheartening as it sounds, there is alot less effort toward keeping people from getting sick when a company can make billions of dollars on a pill that corrects any number of preventable diseases.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
But still it's no charge as I see it other than the $96/month I pay into medical. People cry about all of the taxes up here, I got smart and have beat the taxman at his own game. Despite our heavy taxation and what not I've still managed to amass quite a bit of personal wealth and that's from starting with zip, zero, no family money property or nothing.
So I would say for me medical costs are zip diddily and moreso my point was that say I came down with some type of serious disease/ailment all of the treatments I would need wouldn't cost me anything, the collective us as Canadians would all pay for it for me, just as I'm sure I'm doing for others right now. This would be a good thing no? Helping out my fellow citizens who are undergoing a hardtime.
So I would say for me medical costs are zip diddily and moreso my point was that say I came down with some type of serious disease/ailment all of the treatments I would need wouldn't cost me anything, the collective us as Canadians would all pay for it for me, just as I'm sure I'm doing for others right now. This would be a good thing no? Helping out my fellow citizens who are undergoing a hardtime.
W
Wagnaw
Guest
THAT"S THE THING!!! Everyone pays for socialized medicine! Thus, the whole population is more likely to make a concerted effort toward public health, preventative medicine will get more funding, and environmental protection will get more funding. It's really ashame because the U.S. has some of the best doctors and scientists in the world, but many of them are in the private sector because there's no funding anywhere else.
Sure... government here throws money at public health initiatives, but sadly, alot of the money is for PR, which makes budgeting studies and projects really difficult.
Sure... government here throws money at public health initiatives, but sadly, alot of the money is for PR, which makes budgeting studies and projects really difficult.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
I am in no way trying to say that our system is perfect. But it struck me by reading the opening post that given the current situation set-up you guys have that someone may have to make a really hard decision if they are sick or ill.
What I mean is say I found out I had some type of cancer and it could be treated but doing so would mean financial ruin for me and my family. That would be a really hard decision to make and it's not fair imo. I couldn't imagine having to make that call.
What I mean is say I found out I had some type of cancer and it could be treated but doing so would mean financial ruin for me and my family. That would be a really hard decision to make and it's not fair imo. I couldn't imagine having to make that call.
W
Wagnaw
Guest
Just out of curiosity, are there any unusual repercussions for someone who gets hurt at work because of carelessness? Or are people just way pickier about who does certain work? I know Germany has alot of regulations surrounding tree work because it is so dangerous, which again is an example of a nation looking out for it's citizens because the nation is paying the medical bills. Thus, gov't has a vested interest in the health of its citizens.
F
Frans
Guest
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #47
I said it before, and I will say it again.
IT IS NOT SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE.
What it is, is socialized health care cost management. THAT is what the U.S. needs, IMO.
The pharmaceutical companies, and the 'for profit' hospitals are the ones making out on this current set-up.
The American people are the losers.
IT IS NOT SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE.
What it is, is socialized health care cost management. THAT is what the U.S. needs, IMO.
The pharmaceutical companies, and the 'for profit' hospitals are the ones making out on this current set-up.
The American people are the losers.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
The onus falls entirely on the employer as to proper training and documentation of that training. Even with that(proper training and documentation) the employee is covered 100% no matter how stupid they were being. Here if you are hurt at work you are covered by compo(worksafe BC) and actually because of a tax break and up taking home more than if you are working. That sounds a bit messed up but it's true, I've never been on compo but know people who have been. Also if you are permanently injured or disabled you can get retraining or lump sum payouts for pain and suffering. Even if the employer doesn't have compo coverage if you are an employee compo will cover you and deal with the employer afterwards themselves. Employees are pretty well protected. So yes as an employer it's in your best interest not to have dumbasses working for you.
W
Wagnaw
Guest
Ok... Thanks. Yeah, I've thought alot about how free health care would work in the context of persuading employers to keep employee health in the foreground. I could see a public health system where health care is free to all citizens, but that part of business taxes there may be a sliding scale where safety records can affect the tax rate for businesses. I suppose it would be kind of like buying workers comp coverage but state run. Thus, incentive for employers to keep employees safe.
SkwerI
Treehouser
But then you get into a situation where government minions get to dictate to you what your employees can and cannot do. And guess what??? The typical government pencil pusher will immediately freak out if you were to suggest that you wanted your employee to climb trees with a chainsaw. Nope, that just isn't safe and we cannot allow that. No-sir-eee, you can't do that.
