alternatives in land use

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He is a salesman, Steve. Says some good things and lots of partial truths but for the wrong reasons. The good news is he will sell you what is needed to fix it all. :|:
 
Not too sure about that guy.
One thing he talked about was michorrizal fungi....Sure, chemical is probably part of the equation, but you still wont ever gain michorrizal fungi if you till the soil.

The M. Fungi idea is a great buzz word, and a great thing to generate sales, but most farmers will never see the benefit that these salesmen are talking about until they buy a disk drill and never till again.
 
What is a disk drill. Aerates the soil without totally demolishing it like tilling?
 
Thanks for those links Jim. I've been reading up on the garlic basics like crazy.

I'm really open to growing whatever will sell at this point in time. I have a meeting in a couple hours today at my place with a fellow who's very knowledgeable so I should know a little better where I'm at today. Soil samples/profiles are going to be looked at and taken today which should be interesting.

Also this fellow brought garlic to market on his own land the last two years so he'll have lots of input I'm sure on what I'm thinking. I'm quite lucky as I mentioned before as this fellow is 75 and has farmed/ranched his whole life. Ran the largest ranch in the area for over 40 years and still is a consultant for them. His dad ran the same ranch for about 30 years before that, quite a legacy they leave behind. Neither owned the ranch, just ran it and it has flourished while others have failed. So I feel really fortunate to have his guidance.

Also have just played phone tag still with my local agrologist. But I'm excited to line up a meeting and get her input too.

Tillage is something I'm struggling with at this point. What to do? Not to do? My land has been left alone for so long now I'm in no hurry to screw it all up. Lol.
 
A disc drill can be either a single disc or a double disc set up. A single disc has a sharp blade that looks like a giant pizza cutter that cuts the surface of the soil at a slight angle. The disc is very thin, so they need to pull it at a slight angle to create a wide enough channel in the soil for the seed.

After the disc cuts a channel and the seed is dropped in, a closing wheel or a packer wheel, or a combination of both, come along and close the channel and press the soil to ensure good seed to soil contact.

It is about as minimal disturbance as you can get.....apart from broadcasting the seed.

What most everybody uses now are "hoe" drills. Instead of a rolling disc blade a fixed "point" cuts through the ground making the seed channel.

Thats what we use. Some "points" are much wider than others......we use the smallest, narrowest ones you can buy.

What we use is better, but not as good as a disc.


With out fail, every soil health talk you go to starts the meeting with Michorrizal fungi. No body giving these talks ever tells you that you will never see Michorrizal fungi unless you stop tilling.

If you till or have a hoe drill you live firmly in bacterial land, not fungi land.
 
I know how you feel Justin. I have 300 acres of old CRP north of the house that I want to get into organic production for cash crops.

I cant use chemicals of course. I dont really want to till the shit out of it, but that is probably my only option.

If I had a disc drill, I might be able to plant a cover crop into the ground and get it going that way. The cover crop might shade out the grass and alfalfa, to kill it. Also a cover crop might mellow out the soil enough to plant a cash crop in the fall or next spring.

I ran that all by Gabe Brown......but he never got back to me!
 
Oh, just so you know, a disc drill will cut through much more residue and trash than a hoe drill.

You can leave more residue on the fields and still plant another crop, where as a hoe drill will plug on the residue.

By leaving more residue you are feeding the soil for longer and leaving it covered for longer. Cover for longer is good......less erosion, less evaporation, less heat.

I really need a disc drill! Its next on the soil health journey.
 
Seems like to do garlic I'll have no choice but to till to start. I'm considering chisel plowing deep to disrupt the clay/pan(I have heavy clay in the area) and to promote drainage but not turn the soil from down deep. Then I'm thinking to add my compost mix to the top and till it in? When I do my rows I'm hoping to be able to weed mostly with some type of cultivator or some such set for the row/crop spacing.

A very tentative plan at this point. :D I am really in over my head. Lol. Never stopped me with treework, so why would I let it stop me now?
 
Thanks for the good info re drills etc.

You need a drill, my man? Cobble up a GoFundMe and pitch it toward the high end organic crowd, if possible. Explain the drawbacks of organics (tilling) and how you are the grass roots (lol pun) of positive earth change. It'll be delivered in April;)

You won't. But you should.
 
I'm the furthest thing from a GoFundMe expert. And yowza those things are spendy. But yeah, the right rich folk who have plenty of dough to go and love the idea of cutting edge trends re high quality products and ideas, yup.

But you'd have to reel them in with some super high quality, glossy (but legit) marketing. Think, Patagonia. Oops, might have just lost you there, afaik, you hate patagonia. But those are the peeps with the money. People who never get their hands dirty but still love the idea of outdoorsy. And high quality food for best chance at disease free living.

I gave you a link ages ago about buffalo farms featured by patagonia, don't know if you ever checked it out. But one farm is Wild Idea buffalo, and rich folk from all over pay big bucks to buy their 'wild raised', humanly killed meat and have it mailed to them. Those are the kind of people that are willing to pay for quality and like the idea of helping Mother Earth.

To raise big bucks for the drill, you'd probably end up featured in a news story somewhere, don't know if you are up for all that.
 
I wish I could be less vague about the whole thing but I fully believe that there are enough people out there with some money who would appreciate the whole thing you are working on- less chemicals, better for Mother earth who is seen as 'on the ropes' lately, better sustainability, helping a good cause, stemming the tide of things or processes that may cause cancer.
 
I remember the Patagonia thing....can't remember if I hate them or not....I don't think so!

My only beef with companies like that is that they are selling the "only" way.

Yes, I absolutely read your buffalo links. They were good.


Thanks for the info Cory, I really appreciate it. Something to think about.


They have already asked us if we were willing to be featured in a national magazine....we were not at the time. Fack! I don't have a shitting thing figured out yet!

Maybe not ready to ask for money yet, but I will sit and talk with anyone who dares ask me about this stuff.

This journey has made an optimist out of me.....it feels great.
 
FireFighterZero said:
...I ran that all by Gabe Brown......but he never got back to me!
Click to expand...

Jim, try contacting Jay Fuhrer. He should be easier to get hold of. Those are good questions and he should be able to answer them or get hold of Gabe for you.
 
FireFighterZero said:
They have already asked us if we were willing to be featured in a national magazine....we were not at the time. Fack! I don't have a shitting thing figured out yet!

Maybe not ready to ask for money yet, but I will sit and talk with anyone who dares ask me about this stuff.

This journey has made an optimist out of me.....it feels great.
Click to expand...

That you don't have a shitting thing figured out yet (says you) is part of the appeal of the whole thing. It's exciting! "When you have health, you have hope. When you have hope, you have everything"

"This journey has made an optimist out of me.....it feels great" Whoah, what is better than that! Mother Theresa said, 'Joy is Strength'.
 
squisher said:
...I have a meeting in a couple hours today at my place with a fellow who's very knowledgeable so I should know a little better where I'm at today. Soil samples/profiles are going to be looked at and taken today which should be interesting.....
Click to expand...

Justin, did this meeting ever take place? With your land having been in irrigated, undisturbed, multi species pasture for so many years, it should have built an excellent soil.

I am curious as to what you find and what others will recommend.
 
We would put approximately 200 units of nitrogen per year. Before he put sprinklers in we would usually shank in NH3 in the fall. After the sprinklers it was usually UN32 run through the sprinklers in 3 applications starting in the spring. No animal grazing allowed because of the risk of E. coli. The walnuts are shook onto the ground and winrowed and picked up by machinery so any manure applied to a field has to be composted.
 
Lot of disking over here...and now its stubble burning season. I'm not a farmer but that's what I see going on. We get the odd call out for stubble burns that get away!
 
DMc said:
Justin, did this meeting ever take place? With your land having been in irrigated, undisturbed, multi species pasture for so many years, it should have built an excellent soil.

I am curious as to what you find and what others will recommend.
Click to expand...

Yes. The fellow came by yesterday. Fascinating to walk my land with him. I had a clipboard and pad with me. We were looking specifically at the condition of my hayfield and how to proceed with it, as well as kicking around my idea of some row crops. I got a lot of info from him and I'm collecting a few soil samples to send off over the weekend(coring sampler).

Alot of his management ideas are kind of old school. Spray, chemical fertilize and whatnot. He didn't seem to have specific thoughts in regards to my idea of a no-spray row crop section. Just that I would be potentially overwhelmed by weeds. Remembering that his lifetime of experience is all large scale. He was quit encouraging about the idea overall. He did say he felt garlic was a lot of labor for the return, but the guy is 75.

I also played phone tag yesterday yet again with our local agrologist. So that meeting is still a work in progress.

Dave I don't know if you caught my other post about my tentative tillage plan. I am considering chisel plowing as deep as I can to start. My understanding is that this will improve drainage but not turnover the land or disturb the soil profile as much. Then I plan to spread composted woodchip mixed with composted manure on the top and rotary till it in. Now my soil is not particularly poorly drained(never any standing water) and is very high quality to a visual assessment it's black and rich and a nice loamy mixture,not as heavy clay as I had mentioned earlier. so I'm wondering anyone who reads this thoughts on the deep(chisel) tillage and whether they would think it's nescessary?

I feel like to prep for garlic this fall and to grow a few vegetables this year that I will have to till the existing grass under and just jump in and get going. Lots of weeding. I'm also considering using a small cultivator or tine type of tool to help with weeding.

My parents no till a organic garden for themselves and are extensive gardeners. All small scale for personal but very successful with it. So I have some decent help/advice from them.

It's still super wet here but soon it's going to be time to shit or get off the pot so to speak.
 
Dave. I've also read a bit that says the same thing you mentioned that a undisturbed hayfield/pasture should have really nice strong soil. I'm in no hurry to screw my soil up so while I feel pressure to get going, I'm trying to learn atleast a tiny bit first.
 
Justin, I get a bit uncomfortable making recommendations on ag basically because I know so little about it. However, I do understand soil and what goes into maintaining the biological components and therefore the soil itself. So take anything I say with the understanding that I'm just shooting from the hip.

Try to not turn the soil if you can get away with it. Without extensive and repeated tillage you will still be inundated with weeds so why do it at all? Instead I would fence off your proposed garden plot( an acre is a lot might be better with something smaller) and bring in sheep or goats and graze it down to dirt. Do this when you are ready to plant. There are commercially available mulches in the form of paper or biodegradable plastic. They come in rolls like weed fabric. Cover the ground with this or at least over your planting rows. You could use non biodegradable plastic in between growing rows until you get a handle on the weeds. Cover all this with your composted materials leaving open your planting rows. Or alternately you could leave the ground open in between the growing rows and just keep the weeds mowed. Get the garlic in the ground, then before the weather turns bad mulch it also.

Garlic is considered a lot of work by ag because it is a hand crop. But compared to everything else done in a small garden plot, it is dead easy. We grow our own and have never had a bad year. The local grower that we get our greens from says it is by far her easiest and most reliable crop.
 
Thanks for the reply. That would be the same as what my parents recommend to do. I'm just having a hard time envisioning garlic growing well in soil that hasn't been turned up? I mean my field is nice but IMO it's quit firm or compacted from a decade plus of haying on it. And then everything I read about growing good garlic mentions how the soil needs to be loose because it's a root crop? I guess I'm worried about existing compaction. But i realize it could just be my lack of knowledge and exposure to traditional garden/farming practices that is driving this.

I really like the idea of no till though. So much to consider at this point. As I said I'm not rushing into screwing up my land.

I've grown garlic for a number of years for personal use, although we didn't put any in last year. So I agree here too it seems like an easy crop.


I agree a acre could be overkill and so maybe a 1/2 acre to start?
 
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