What's the Definition of Snake Oil Sales in the Tree Biz?

Jomo said:
Let's apply some simple logic to just one glaring defect of the Cobra dynamic cabling system, in the real world.

Girdling the branches of certain tree species with fragile bark/cambium, when anywhere near the forces the system's rated to withstand are actually applied, at the connection.

Alnus rhombifolia and Betula pendula are two prime examples. Actually apply a ton or two of pull to any girdling connections in either species and watch what happens!

Does Cobra have a disclaimer bout soft barked tree species being inappropriate for their strangulation support systems?

Jomo
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You make a good point about sensitive species. I haven't seen any such warning.

I don't get the 'strangulation' thing.

Aren't many cables meant to be replaced as the tree grows? What is the big deal about a limited life span from exposure for a piece of equipment that will become obsolete?

The cobra is allowing the tree to move, moreso than static cables, from my understanding. I don't get your rationale (no offense), it seems backward.
 
SouthSoundTree said:
Aren't many cables meant to be replaced as the tree grows? What is the big deal about a limited life span from exposure for a piece of equipment that will become obsolete?

The cobra is allowing the tree to move, moreso than static cables, from my understanding. I don't get your rationale (no offense), it seems backward.
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Sean, just stand on your head and look; it'll all make sense. Here's a load of cobras crawling through a planetree over a French market. They're all drunk on snake oil over there. 2nd pic is 6 years of discoloration in a sick silver maple.
 

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That cobra-infested plane tree really "needs" all those short-lived serpents to stay intact?
If so, then I guess every single urban Plane tree in France probably requires the services of an arboricultural herpetologist.
 
Its all risk-acceptance, in my book.


Customer: Should I do this or that? Well, I'm hear to inform you and educate you. I could tell you what I would do, but that doesn't really apply, as I am not the one at risk.

I do have included elms that should get static cables. I just need to get around to it. I did some Cobra 6 years ago, before I did any drilling. I have some Rig-guys and EHS, now just to find the time, opportunity, and motivation at the same time.
 
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  • #55
Get your Cobra snake oil here folks!

ISA approved, and only 3 bills per bottle!

Jomo
 
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  • #56
Hey Sean.

Call the manufacturer of your EHS cable, and ask them if they'll stand behind their cables rated strength when used in conjunction with a Rigguy termination?

Their answer might just open your eyes mate!

Now unlike Rigguy terminations, which require separation of the EHS cables individual wires into bell shaped vice, these Preformed Line Products Wedge grips do not disturb the natural lay the cable from the factory whatsoever, while maintaining 100 percent of the cables rated strength.

http://www.preformed.com/index.php?...44:application-procedures&Itemid=212&start=20

Problem is they're so dang ugly!

Plus the cable's exit point from each trunk creates a bell shaped wound due to lateral movements caused by winds.

Wounds that would normally be confined to a steel on steel connection between eyebolt and thimble using traditional cabling.

Looks a helluva lot better too!


Jomo
 
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  • #57
SouthSoundTree said:
How is your static alignment gun-thingy idea for J lags? Still working on it?
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J lags?

Probably the number one reason for cabling failures out there? A crime frequently committed by cablers who don't know the difference between softwoods and hardwoods?

Well I guess that's somewhat understandable considering the ANSI cabling standards make no distinction between the two types of wood either! Just that lags be installed only into "sound" wood.

And so softwoods continue spitting out J lags left and right creating pretty little wind chimes, all alone!

Cabling softwoods with J lags is downright criminal behavior I'm tellin yu, ANSI approved or not!

Jomo
 
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  • #59
The issue of J lags in softwoods is no laughing matter IMO

Screws everybody over, particularly the tree and the client.

Jomo
 
Jomo said:
... the ANSI cabling standards make no distinction between the two types of wood either! Just that lags be installed only into "sound" wood.

And so softwoods continue spitting out J lags left and right creating pretty little wind chimes, all alone!

Cabling softwoods with J lags is downright criminal behavior I'm tellin yu, ANSI approved or not!

Jomo
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So what was the response when you sent in that comment to the committee?
 
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  • #61
The committees and powers that control this industry are so far behind the curve, and so corrupt that I just do my thing and enjoy their embarrassment as they scramble to catch up.

Meanwhile you guys can cable all the softwoods you want using J lag terminations, and the ANSI committees will support you in your crimes!

Jomo
 
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  • #62
An example of tree industry corruption that sticks out like a sore thumb?

The collusion between The senior safety officer for TCIA, and the whole tree chipper manufacturers of any stature to insulate themselves from lawsuits each time a solo WTC operator gets eaten alive on the job.

Rather than heed the number one recommendation of OSHA and FACE officials tasked with cleaning up after each of these grizzly events, a two man minimum rule for WTC operations?

55 deaths on the job later?

Same story, train your chipper operator better!

Why one man can hand feed that 300 horse power hurricane safely long as he follows safe procedures!

Grizzly on the job deaths, facilitated by your friends at TCIA, Vermeer and Morbark!

Jomo
 
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  • #64
Shhh!

It's a secret, and that safety officer's good buddies with Mark and Tom at TB,,,,,,,,

Jomo
 
Were some of those documented 55 on-the-job grisly deaths (over what year time period?) determined to be suicides?
 
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  • #66
Oh yeah!

With no one about to testify otherwise!

One such was a friend of mine in fact. Dude on the right with the beard.


Jomo

I shouldn't say any were lawfully determined to be suicides, I don't know.

But I do know that lawyers for the WTC side of things insinuated such nonsense in their arguments in court.

Jomo

Whole tree chippers were first introduced to the market in 1989, Pelorus.

I never used one till bout 93 or so. Vermeer's first BC1800.

Jomo
 

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  • #67
I welcome anyone, arborist or PhD plant biologist to explain to me how the cobra dynamic cabling system does not weaken any un flawed healthy tree/branch it's used on, over time?

It's an open invitation to debate this matter scientifically, or otherwise.

Who wants to be affiliated with anyone who peddles snake oil, in any industry?

Jomo
 
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  • #70
Why would such an important safety aspect of our industry not be openly debated and definitively determined one way or the other?

Telewski's work speaks for my beliefs and opinions more than adequately.

It's the proponents of Cobra dynamic cabling systems that I wish to engage in debate here, in a civil manner, and whatever documentation they provide? I promise to read and consider.

Jomo
 
Ok Jomo, here's a poser for you, in the UK and I assume a lot of Europe we have "summer branch drop" heavy horizontal limbs that let go without warning, usually in high summer only on Oaks if I remember.
I've seen it first hand, and no one seems to be able to offer an explanation. Do a search on Arbtalk for it there's a lot of head scratching.
Now in a situation where there is a branch of this sort, long, horizontal and over a place with heavy footfall, why not put some cobra, slack, so it doesn't change the natural movement but enough to hold the branch should it decide to succumb to this phenomena?
Remember I don't work for them or anything!
 
Jomo said:
I welcome anyone, arborist or PhD plant biologist to explain to me how the cobra dynamic cabling system does not weaken any un flawed healthy tree/branch it's used on, over time?

...
Jomo
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So what you are saying is that people are selling and putting cobra systems into 'unflawed/healthy tree branches'...surely that is the fault of the operator, not the product.

It is our responsibility to as accurately as possible risk assess a tree and determine its potential to fail and the consequences if it sould do so.
How many unflawwed /healthy branches are out there where we all have thought and said, 'nothing wrong with that...moving on, NEXT'
I would think that a great majority of arborists are in this camp, not just busy going around selling services that are unneccesary, cobra, cable...anything.

I went to a concert in the park on Saturday and we sat unter a 100yr + english oak. Looking up I could see old cables AND cobra...but there was a large callused split directly down the main trunk between the heaviest leaders, so over time both systems had been used to mitigate risk, I sure as was happy to sit under it with the support systems in place, static and dynamic.
 
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  • #73
Yes, I've read quite a bit about summer limb drop being more prevalent in certain tree species. Some of the research suggesting it may be girdling insect driven.

Regardless I've got no problem with a slack line with running bowlines on each end providing zero structural support, and only installed and maintained to catch the branch if it fails.

But as Telewski proved, any artificial dynamic support system,if left in place over many years? It will weaken the supported limb/tree, and should therefor be removed after two years at the latest. If that were not the case? Only then would cobra make sense, but only if that support strengthened a branch/tree. The reality is that Telewski's right, artificial support of an unflawed tree weakens it. There's no doubt. It's scientifically proven.

Want to strengthen a limb? Stress it a bit. The opposite of supporting it a bit.

Jomo
 
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