TIP location?

[Treeaddict]

Investigated a large limb over neighbor’s deck. Went up for reconnaissance a few days ago. Everything is healthy and structurally sound. I started some deadwooding and will return to finish the deadwooding as well as a little weight reduction. I told him that if we take that whole limb off it’s approximately 40% of the canopy and would cause massive harm to the tree at which point we should just remove the whole thing. I’m thinking of tying in at a point near the end of the limb that I’ve circled in red in the second photo. I know the limb is in good shape because I was up there and halfway out in it. I could always tie in closer to the trunk but that’s a long horizontal plane to get out there. Lots of swing. Is it ever a good practice to tie in near the end of a limb? The tree in question is a Prunus Serotina -black cherry. A strong tree. Even the dead wood was still solid.

 

[Altissimus]

Generally strong and trustable barring specific tree circumstances ... probably rate them a squeak below Sugar Maples

 

[SkwerI]

Absolutely. I've had big, spreading live oaks that required 4-5 separate tie ins to work the entire canopy. Typically I would traverse from one major lead to the next, then work my way up and transfer my tie in to the new lead. Or once in a while if I still needed the old tie in later, I would use a second lifeline. These situations emphasize why it is so important to plan out your entire climb before leaving the ground.

That tree could easily be classified as a codominant. The side lead definitely took primary dominance and is bigger than the central lead.

 

[ruel]

Id try to get that crotch backed up. If you can set A line high in a tree 180° to the lean of that limb, ideal. Can often lob a throwline through a big open crotch like that and grab a limb in a tree behind, and get a base Tie. Shooting from the side in the yard.

Do you have a bigshot/ APTA?

 

[Treeaddict]

Ruel, yes. It is backed up. If primary snaps, 2’ drop to another larger branch.

 

[Altissimus]

Think he means the main crotch possibly running a split , thus line to to the other lead or tree

 

[Treeaddict]

Oh ok. Gottcha. I didn’t think about the sub dom failure. It it a very sturdy connection with no bark inclusion. Just got down. Took off a near horizontal limb overhanging the deck. More sling practice. Nearly cut off more than I could lift on one of them but I could just have dropped the piece with my final cut close to the stem. Gonna go take off another long limb after late lunch

 

[Bermy]

Huh, just reading this before setting off this morning. You've reminded me to take a bag of slings. I'm cutting an ash away from a glasshouse from a cherry picker.
Usually if I'm climbing I have two on my harness, packing for cherry picker jobs with a different harnessI might have forgotten them!
Thanks 😊

On that tree , Id be a bit wary, would definitely have backup in the smaller vertical to the left.
Maybe go with two climbing lines?

 

[Treeaddict]

Glad to help with the sling situation! 😃

I shot over that circled crotch and basal anchored. Was able to rope walk directly up to the limb to be removed. A second TIP may have been good especially if I was going to do more than that one limb with a little deadwooding in the immediate vicinity.

The thing is, I don’t remember ever seeing anyone tied on out on a limb. They always use an anchor close to the trunk. This is just what I remember from 10 hrs of videos a week over the last 7 months. I would have died if the whole co/sub dom failed at the trunk. It felt more practical then high TIP close the trunk and working out to a 45* angle to work. Weighing catastrophic tree failure vs taking a big swing back to the trunk I chose the path where the tree stayed intact.

I do like the idea of 2 or more TIPs though something I haven’t given too much thought to. Would be great for working the tree as well as safety like you said.

 

[Bermy]

I definitely needs my slings today
I don't weigh much and I would have been twitchy srt climbing up with a TIP so far out with no backup.
Glad you got it done and are down safely.

 

[pigwot]

Mike,
Your question of where to hang your life while setting up to work a
tree has an overarching answer:

The Generality: Always secure yourself with a bulletproof, central/strong TIP. Set additional lines and/or redirects to get out to a remote work position.

The Specificity: Every tree is different, and though I agree to a degree with Brian to think through and plan the climb before leaving the ground, every minute of working a tree requires a constant reassessing of, and reacting to what you find. Seeing up close the structure and integrity (or lack thereof) of the tree, and the actual angle and location of work positions (handholds, footholds, possible alternate or subsequent redirects) will determine ’in the moment’ how you work the tree. *Having a few slings always available can make a big difference.

The Reality: You’re wisely taking this slow and steady, and learning as you go. I predict that there will be a point in your climbing where you’re going to experience a zen-like ‘aha moment’, where it all just clicks, and you suddenly realize that you are ‘doing’ more than consciously ’thinking’ about every move. Don’t get me wrong, you will be thinking, but it becomes an undercurrent, just one of many, many
myriad inputs. Like that zen master you won’t think separately about each component: the tree species and its hinging capacity, the wind direction and strength, the power and cutting rate of your saw, the angle of your rope, the subtle change in the movement of the tree with each cut, and a hundred other data points. Rather, in that moment you will become the tree, you will become the wind, you will become the saw, and like the zen archer, you will not only become the arrow and the target, but will be the all.

 

[Altissimus]

I always climb with three slings extra and two safeties , even if the slings not thought needed ... damn if that doesn't change often and they get used

 

[Mesquite]

if you are ever not 100% about the strength of a limb, crotch , tip dont use a basal anchor. im not sure if you are aware of this but it acts like a pulley and your climbing weight is roughly doubled on the highest point or where ever the rope goes from going up to going down.

 

[SkwerI]

if you are ever not 100% about the strength of a limb, crotch , tip dont use a basal anchor. im not sure if you are aware of this but it acts like a pulley and your climbing weight is roughly doubled on the highest point or where ever the rope goes from going up to going down.

Another advantage of DdRT method instead of SRT. Half the load on your tie in point.

 

[lxskllr]

Is that right? Seems like it's 100% load at the tie in. A 200# climber has 100#/rope leg=200# at the limb crossing.

 

[SeanKroll]

I wouldn't use a less efficient technique, I'd find a better anchor point.

 

[Mesquite]

Is that right? Seems like it's 100% load at the tie in. A 200# climber has 100#/rope leg=200# at the limb crossing.

In srt your only tied to one side of the rope so your weight is weight both sides of the rope sees. Think of how a pulley works. In drt you share your weight between the two lines so the anchor sees your weight. Your only tied to one side of the rope in srt so the both side sees your weight and the limb the rope is over sees x2. You have to subract the friction and what knots but you should get the point. Also a Basel tie like srt but the side you climb you use to pull the tree over, is a good way to get that extra leverage when felling the tree.

 

[Mesquite]

When rigging you could use the fishing pole technique to get a little more strength out of it. Or you could redirect the rigging line all the way to one of the limbs/branches to 180 of the branch your cutting off and that would be the best it would put the piece your rigging/ in compression

 

[lxskllr]

I meant Skwerl's post in reference to an mrs setup.

 

[Mesquite]

Right, my response was to lxsllr, because I thought he was not sure about it

 

[Mesquite]

Lol , my bad thanks for clearing that up

 

[Bermy]

The base tie double weight at TIP thing does not hold entirely true when applied to trees. Unless your rope absolutely does not touch anything else but your TIP then yes. But inevitably the down leg threads over several branches, and/or along the trunk and helps share some of the load.

 

[Bart]

I've done some research on basal tied SRT tip forces. There's a lot of effect from friction going over the tip. It reduces the tip load significantly from x2. My findings agreed with those of Petzl. It's an interesting topic. To put it in perspective, imagine a brutal tight rough bark crotch and you're DRT on it. You can barely descend, to the point of seeing your hitch completely slack. Now picture that each end of that rope is basal tie and you instead of two ends of DRT. If your basal tie down line is all jammed up by friction your down line force is greatly reduced and your tip load is much less than x2. In reality I think I recall that the ratio of the tensions in the you line and the down basal side line is 1.4 for average bark.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

An easy way to see this is SRT with a basal tie on a single stem tree. Go up a ways and pull on the tied leg. Often, you can flex that line quite a bit to move it out of the way. Not slack by any means, but can more easily be deflected. Just an observation.

 

[Treeaddict]

You’re right Stephen, I sometimes use the tied leg to help get into position and I’ve noticed that it flexes considerably. Much more slack than the leg I’m tied to.

Along the lines of a safe TIP, has anyone ever had a TIP pass the bounce with a buddy test only to have it fail later in the climb?