The Official Work Pictures Thread
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squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
Different strokes for different folks. This is a international gathering of cutters. Just adding what my experience/locale has presented to me. It's not like it's my own theory. I believe it's one of the main reasons for wrap handlebars which is/are pretty well universally used in the pnw.
First 3 reasons that come to mind are for better ergonomics in certain situations such as the pic in question, and it's necessary 1/2 the time when cutting dirty wood in order to stay sharp, and lastly when finishing the cut while bucking large diameter logs- after the log is rolled over for access to the uncut portion it is easier and faster to put the tip of bar in the kerf and finish by back chaining rather than doing the same but using a pulling chain. For some reason the saw follows the kerf much better when back chaining vs when pull chaining the saw slightly tends to want to cut a new kerf.
Edit: Stig that is another excellent point.
Edit: Stig that is another excellent point.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
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Your back is gonna become crippled leaning out like that, Brian. Trust me. It woulda been no effort at all to get that bucket closer to the tree.
I push a chain when I'm trying to keep the ants off me... usually ALAPing a stump.
I push a chain when I'm trying to keep the ants off me... usually ALAPing a stump.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
I'd give you it's a handy technique for bucking. But straight up felling cuts I see little to no use for it with a 3/4 wrap handle.
SkwerI
Treehouser
Your back is gonna become crippled leaning out like that, Brian. Trust me. It woulda been no effort at all to get that bucket closer to the tree.
I push a chain when I'm trying to keep the ants off me... usually ALAPing a stump.
It looks more awkward than it is. First off, I try to make the cut just below the lip of the bucket to keep all the sawdust from coming back on me. Second, I need enough space between the bucket and tree for the saw handle to clear. And the homeowner snapped the pic as I was leaning out to start the cut on the back side because I'm cutting a 28" trunk with a 24" bar.
But if I ever need advice on how to run a bucket, you'll be the first one I ask.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #23,883
I'm sure it was a trick of the light...
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Full Wrap!
Stumpshot
General Purpose
Our climber, now bucket operator, likes to lean out like that. That's the only time he's ever tweaked out his back, grabbing something and pivoting for a hurl. Me? I plan on getting closer to the cut in the bucket, as I do on the ground. I also plan on getting a fall arrest harness! And a saw scabbard for aloft work.
Burnham
Woods walker
Push chain is amateur hour in my neck of the woods. Think I've mentioned that once or twice.
I can't explain it any simpler than they do at about 5:00 in this video. When using the bottom of the bar the chainsaw teeth are moving towards the operator which pulls the saw away from the operator. The top of the bar is the opposite and inherently more dangerous because of this. Minimize risk anyway you can. To use a push chain to 'not get sawdust on you' is not nearly as good of a reason as using a pull chain 'so the saw is pulled away from you not pushed towards you'. It all becomes very important if you strike a solid object within the tree, spike, old metal fence post, whatever. Also because of the kickback zone, it's much more likely to contact something when cutting with the top of the bar then the bottom, because it's on the top of the tip. So you are moving the kickback zone forward as part of the leading edge, instead of with a pull chain where it is trailing behind. After the cut so to speak.
And is yet another reason why 3/4 wrap handlebars are superior, allowing you to position yourself and use the saw in the most safe way possible way more then a 1/2 wrap.
Everything is all good until it isn't. My uncle went nearly 30years felling/bucking before he took a kickback to the face. Life altering event. I can assure you he was quite adept with a saw, still is. Just because it's never happened yet, doesn't mean it can't.
https://www.worksafebc.com/en/resou...rd-video-series/using-the-saw-4-of-17?lang=en
Sorry, my friend. I disagree on almost every point. One of the many advantages of 3/4 wrap handles is that they allow more convenient and ergonomically comfortable backchaining.
I backchain with great regularity, as needs dictate. Learned it at the knee of a better sawyer than any of us will be likely to see again.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
Again. I can only comment on my own experience and what has been drilled into me my whole life. And makes logical sense to me too. It is the standard in BC to not backchain and that is the reason for wrap handlebars as per our faller training. Not to allow better positioning for backchaining, but to avoid it always if possible. It's not my own theory, you will fail your falling cert if you backchain your felling cuts in BC. So at best we'll agree to disagree. 
From the worksafeBC faller training handbook:
Choosing a Chainsaw
Being a professional begins with
the selection and care of your
equipment. Use a professional chainsaw model with adequate-size dogs and a chain brake meeting current CSA standard. Manufacturer’s full-wrap handlebars are required. This provides maximum control of the chainsaw in all cutting positions and allows the chainsaw to always be used with a pulling chain to avoid kickback (7). Minimize backbaring (14).
https://www.worksafebc.com/en/resou...es/bc-faller-training-standard/part-1?lang=en
It is mentioned over and over again in the standard:
Backbaring is cutting with a pushing chain, i.e., using the
top of the bar. This can cause severe kickback because of
the increased exposure to the kickback zone (7) when the saw is being pushed back towards the faller. This also causes stress and fatigue on the arms, wrists, shoulders, neck and back while pushing the saw into the cut against the pushing chain.
• Always use the saw with a pulling chain, i.e., the bottom of the bar. Let the saw do the work; let the saw dogs take the weight of the saw.
• Backbar only when absolutely necessary, i.e., underbucking (37)(3
, trimming whiskers (16), removing thick bark (.
Remember this isn't my own theory on this. These are the rules and guidelines developed in BC that govern the cutting of all BC timberfallers. This is based on research and results, not anecdotal singular experience.
From the worksafeBC faller training handbook:
Choosing a Chainsaw
Being a professional begins with
the selection and care of your
equipment. Use a professional chainsaw model with adequate-size dogs and a chain brake meeting current CSA standard. Manufacturer’s full-wrap handlebars are required. This provides maximum control of the chainsaw in all cutting positions and allows the chainsaw to always be used with a pulling chain to avoid kickback (7). Minimize backbaring (14).
https://www.worksafebc.com/en/resou...es/bc-faller-training-standard/part-1?lang=en
It is mentioned over and over again in the standard:
Backbaring is cutting with a pushing chain, i.e., using the
top of the bar. This can cause severe kickback because of
the increased exposure to the kickback zone (7) when the saw is being pushed back towards the faller. This also causes stress and fatigue on the arms, wrists, shoulders, neck and back while pushing the saw into the cut against the pushing chain.
• Always use the saw with a pulling chain, i.e., the bottom of the bar. Let the saw do the work; let the saw dogs take the weight of the saw.
• Backbar only when absolutely necessary, i.e., underbucking (37)(3
, trimming whiskers (16), removing thick bark (.Remember this isn't my own theory on this. These are the rules and guidelines developed in BC that govern the cutting of all BC timberfallers. This is based on research and results, not anecdotal singular experience.
flushcut
TreeHouser
Are you tied in in this pic?
SeanKroll
Treehouser
To be more specific, this is where you would hold the other side, spraying chips away from you, while pulling-chaining it.
SkwerI
Treehouser
And how exactly do you think I should cut the far side of the trunk? Remember my bucket is side mounted so working off the right side of the bucket is difficult at best. Since you have so much bucket experience and all. I'm glad your armchair theory is superior to my 15+ years of bucket experience. Also remember it only took me 4.5 hours to remove that entire tree, not three days.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #23,891
lol Always so bright and cheerful!
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
I think Sean meant with a wrap handle. You could've simply started the cut on the side closest to you with a pulling chain dogged in and cut through. Chips would be going away from the house and the bucket.
Burnham
Woods walker
All good, Justin. No worries from me. I didn't mean 3/4 wraps were designed to make back chaining easy, that's just a side effect.
Do you mean no back chaining on felling cuts only, or not at all?
Do you mean no back chaining on felling cuts only, or not at all?
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
Underbucking is one of the reasons given for it. But again as per the fallers training in BC backchaining is to be avoided. For all the reasons I listed which are pretty much all the reasons given in the training manual too which makes sense because it's just what I've always known, avoid backchaining it pushes the saw towards the operator and increases the risk of kickback. In other words if you're going to backchain there had better be a reason for it and be aware of the increased hazards involved. And where I come from backchaining just because you have a half wrap is not a good reason. Get a 3/4 or full wrap on that sucka!
Burnham
Woods walker
Yes, I was specifically wondering about underbucking. Thanks.
Stumpshot
General Purpose
Likewise, undercutting was the prime example of backchaining that immediately leapt to mind. Glad the BC guidelines take that into account!
SeanKroll
Treehouser
IDK, I used to fly a 60' versa-lift sometimes wrecking big, rotten tree, dropping right next to the truck. Cut it right, or cut it right on the truck. I've use a full wrap a lot. I have one half-wrap that I bought cheap on TreeBuzz, not thinking about the handle at time of purchase. Its been sitting on the bench, define B-string.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
Your picture that started this whole backchaining discussion is of a half wrap saw?
SeanKroll
Treehouser
That's right. My 261 and 250 are half wraps. All my top handles, too.
I meant real saws.
I bought a nearby new 576xp off a guy for half price, shipped, or close.
I can one-hand a ms250 to some extent, so it seems to me to be more like a toy. You wouldn't put a full wrap on a toy.
I didn't understand what Cory meant at the beginning.
I meant real saws.
I bought a nearby new 576xp off a guy for half price, shipped, or close.
I can one-hand a ms250 to some extent, so it seems to me to be more like a toy. You wouldn't put a full wrap on a toy.
I didn't understand what Cory meant at the beginning.
SeanKroll
Treehouser
125' fir, roughly, 20' top.
5-6 logs with deep hinges or magic cut.
Half a tank in the 193t to get to the 40' fellable spar, double- cutting logs.
20' magic-cut, double-check log to finish off chunking.
320pm
350pm
Olympia mountains are hard to see
Wasn't 100% positive of lean, so hinged over, double-cut.
Pull down rope for my choked climb line, off 35-40' spar.
Gear off...415pm.
Laid out sweepy butt toward the garage and driveway, next to chunks, allowing homeowner to yard out logs with his mini-x, if desired.
No cleanup, just keep it on this side of the property line, as in, opposite where they grew toward the sun, up against another tree.
This tree had a bad defect part way up. Had to roll yesterday, without a finale pic.
Opposite side of garage from the fir, cedar reduction.
5-6 logs with deep hinges or magic cut.
Half a tank in the 193t to get to the 40' fellable spar, double- cutting logs.
20' magic-cut, double-check log to finish off chunking.
320pm
350pm
Olympia mountains are hard to see
Wasn't 100% positive of lean, so hinged over, double-cut.
Pull down rope for my choked climb line, off 35-40' spar.
Gear off...415pm.
Laid out sweepy butt toward the garage and driveway, next to chunks, allowing homeowner to yard out logs with his mini-x, if desired.
No cleanup, just keep it on this side of the property line, as in, opposite where they grew toward the sun, up against another tree.
This tree had a bad defect part way up. Had to roll yesterday, without a finale pic.
Opposite side of garage from the fir, cedar reduction.
