Structural Mutilation

[Treeaddict]

Went to parents house and got a good look at their silver maples (I know they are frequently despised) and the jobs a licensed company had been doing. They look like they were topped at least twice. Last topping was done just before my tree interest. I used to climb the one in backyard as a child. I asked my dad if they warned you about the hazards of topping and he said they didn’t. He thinks it’s his fault for asking the company to make the trees shorter/safer. I explained what a canopy reduction does. That’s the solution. He completely understood that logic. It upsets me that no education was provided by the company. I truly don’t believe the quantity of trees I see routinely topped around here- a state where a specific tree expert license is required to perform arborist duties. Looks like March of next year I’m going to be thinning the epicormic sprouts and trying to get the excess weight off the limbs which are now subject to intense decay. I get the whole “if we don’t do it, someone else will” and “need to run a business” but at the VERY least would love to see the homeowner being educated and offered proper alternative solutions. This is a “reputable” company in our county.

Also, they broke his propane grill and told him “you need to get a new grill”. Probably did him a favor though because that grill was 30 years old and temperamental.

 

[Jonny]

How long ago was this done?
Silver maples don’t do great in ice storms, high winds, or early heavy snow when they’re still in full leaf. When damaged by storms, the only real option besides removal is to cut out the broken tops.

Obviously the trees in your pics are far from perfect, but if they were in my yard, I’d try to keep them. I see some decay, some hollow spots, and some not so good cuts, but I wouldn’t give up hope. Nothing too alarming needed around weight reduction or hazards from what I can see. I highly doubt you’ll see any fair weather spontaneous failures for the next couple years, but if Mother Nature throws you a curve ball, who knows?

I’ve heard it all too, and yes they are a bit soft, and don’t do well in storms. Nonetheless I love Silver Maples. One of the more common hardwoods in my area, and these days that seem like a constant flow of dead ash removals, I enjoy a chance to prune a silver maple. They can be quite beautiful, in my opinion.

 

[lxskllr]

I like the silver maple leaves. The shape's particularly pleasing.

 

[Treeaddict]

I definitely haven’t given up hope and not wanting/thinking about removal. I just wish they were never topped. I’ll be doing weight reduction cuts and monitor the previous cuts for decay. The first topping was done maybe 7 yrs ago (a guess) and the last one was around a year ago (for sure)

Glad there are others who like the silver maple. They, in my mind are a beautiful native species. These 2 have great trunk structure and their leaders are well connected/grown. The front yard specimen grew quite a long trunk before canopy flare.

 

[Tree09]

I have 2 declining ones by the house still, and will remove one this year. It's the one that dropped the limb on the roof, it's been hanging on just fine now that the rotten limb was self pruned. The other one is by the well, and by what I've read they draw so much water that having them by a shallow well helps you have more and cleaner water. So i want to limp it along too, was even considering topping cuts to attempt a pollard, so for me would be an easily maintained lower risk version of the tree, to help deal with the trunk rot.

 

[Treeaddict]

Kyle, yeah the tree will definitely help clean the water. In your situation, the pollarding sounds like a good way to keep the tree going.

 

[SeanKroll]

I have 2 declining ones by the house still, and will remove one this year. It's the one that dropped the limb on the roof, it's been hanging on just fine now that the rotten limb was self pruned. The other one is by the well, and by what I've read they draw so much water that having them by a shallow well helps you have more and cleaner water. So i want to limp it along too, was even considering topping cuts to attempt a pollard, so for me would be an easily maintained lower risk version of the tree, to help deal with the trunk rot.

If you are really pollarding, I'd call it a heading cut.

Topping doesn't consider the tree biology, which you are, guessing you're not blindly, internodally, "civil war doctoring" it.

Consider sap- pullers. Silver maple Might or Might not prefer them.

I think @biggun or Mick posted some pics with sap-puller branches on a pollard.

 

[Tree09]

I've never heard sap pullers... any pictures or descriptions plz?

 

[biggun]

I have seen them but don’t tend to do them.

Someone with a better qualification than myself has asked in the past to leave them on.

Usually on old and knackered trees.

Basically you cut the majority of the growth from the pollard point and leave one of two smaller growths. Supposedly the left sucker will continue to promote sap to the pollard head.

Looks messy IMO but I have no idea how these trees would react if none were left on.

 

[SeanKroll]

Thanks for chiming in, Rich.



I can picture a white-ish stucco wall in the picture. Perhaps France.


I have never initiated a proper pollard pruning. I just pruned a catalpa that have had the whips removed annually for 30 years. No sap-pullers.



Kyle, are there any branches as targeted reduction points, even if hard reduction?
Got a picture?





I've got an elm at home that I'm reducing. I've headed a couple trunks because they had no practical reduction points. I was able to reduce other limbs to laterals. I'll manage epicomic sprouting on the headed branch, rather then a creating large wound at a fork on a limb reaching over my roof with skylights.

 

[Tree09]

Yeah I'll get some pics, and I've obviously never started a pollard either.

 

[Tree09]

OK, here's the tree in question. Mature silver, plenty of branches that i could head back to, but i wonder is there a way to make them if not or do even more? Maybe a small reduction each year to get it to branch out further back towards the trunk, and then just stop when you get far enough back?

 

[PCTREE]

I personally love a well pollarded tree.
Have to see if I can remember to snap a picture of one locally

 

[Marc-Antoine]

By the book, you never pollard a mature tree as a mean to reduce it by half or more. It's too late to do it properly and all you will get is a hacked tree. It will either die or sprout like mad, but surely become the target of massive rot and have a serious roots's problem.
To pollard a tree, you have to do it as soon as the tree reaches the biggest development you envision for it. It means relatively young and with small diameter cuts. The cuts are made at the minimal size of the crown for all the tree's life. Every times, the cuts are made at these exact locations. Basicaly, the crown's size fluctuates between these two volumes. A reasonnable periodicity for the cuts is about three years More than that and you began to loose the benefits of this technique (bigger cuts, longer/heavier limbs to manage, more entrance for rot ...). No sap suckers or studs left, just cut all the regrowth, cleanly, without cutting in the old wood.
The sap suckers were used in the country for the pollards grown to get firewood from the limbs. But in this case, it was a real butchering. The trees were reduced to just a trunk and a single limb was left at the top to maintain a little food supply while the tree tried to put in place its new sprouts.

 

[Bermy]

Excellent description.
Pollarding is a distinct method achieved with forethought beginning with a young tree and requiring ongoing specific maintenance.
It isn't a 'thing' to be done to a mature tree that has become too big for it's location.

 

[Tree09]

Ok, I'll just cut it down in time. Thx guys.

 

[lxskllr]

I'd play with it, and see what happens. Only costs time. Doesn't have to be any "official" technique as long as you're happy with it.

 

[Mellow]

As I recall, silver maples, being poor compartmentalizers, do not respond well to topping.

 

[Treeaddict]

Kyle, I agree with John. This is a great opportunity to practice some techniques and see what happens . The species, indeed, does not compartmentalize well but still takes years and years to rot usually.

 

[SeanKroll]

Kyle, you have the skills and means to reduce the risk and manage regrowth. Consider if it's a time to play with support systems.



In the list of options I give customers, I tell them the worst possible thing you can do to a tree is complete removal.

My friends have some hazard doug-fir trees that are hazard trees because of their height in relation to important things. Vertical reduction is less bad for a doug-fir than removal.
I gave them the option to reduce the likelihood of short-term blowover (root disease, rooting zone-- on very edge of water, prevailing winds with newly renovated and occupied residential space aligned) through 40' vertical reduction on 100' trees, with certainty that the trees couldn't reach the residence, only the old firewood sheds. I'm tasked to kill them instead. Both good options. Tree owner's choice.

$0.02


@Tree09 IF you want, some views from a greater distance would be more informative.

 

[gf beranek]

At Santa Rosa Junior College, in 1972, I began a 2 year course in viticulture, as taught by Richard Thomas. To this day Richard Thomas was the most dynamic teacher I've ever known.

Part of Richard's teachings in viticulture included plant physiology, and using that understanding towards pruning and training the vines into a profitable production system. Farming 101. It's all about production.

Learning the teaching of physiology, pruning and training concepts, as taught by Richard Thomas, launched my understanding in how the concepts can be applied easily to pruning shrubs... and eventually to pruning trees.

The gist of all this rambling, I guess, comes from the topic of this thread "Structural Mutilation"

By Richard Thomas's teachings that could only come by product of nature or negligence.

 

[Treeaddict]

Any of Richard Thomas’s work available in print or video, Jerry?

 

[gf beranek]

I don't think he ever published any works on the subject.

But if you do a search on spur pruning and cane pruning you should get the general idea.

There are four systems used in the vineyards: head prune, vertical cordon, horizontal cordon and cane pruning.

Training and maintaining the vines into each pruning system requires a different school of thought.

Head prune and vertical cordon is difficult to maintain, because of apical dominance, but they are the easiest to establish.

Horizontal cordon takes more thought to establish, but is easier to maintain there after.

Cane pruning is the most difficult to train, and maintain, but it is the best of the 4 systems for production.

Especially with certain varieties. Specifically those that are not big producers to begin with.

 

[TINYHULK]

On the topic of silver maples. I took down my first “big” one this last week. Had a very wide spreading canopy and seemed very healthy but the customer wanted it gone for other plans with the space. What I noticed is the hinge properties absolutely sucked! Seemed to hold lots of weight while rigging large sideways limbs from the neighbors side to our property but the wood liked to fracture and wouldn’t hinge at all. Here’s some pictures of the stem we pulled over. I’ve never seen a leader so large just fracture from landing impact. Is this normal for silver maples and what can I expect in other seasons? Thank you!

 

[Altissimus]

Not a big Silver Maple fan here ... though they can have longevity and grow to real big , even popular for landscape plantings
, overall quite weak imo compared to Sugar Maples