Someone Might Care... Who Knows?

[MasterBlaster]

 

[Magnus]

For me a sharp chain besides seeing it that way, is one where I can drag the flat part of my fingernail across the edge and it catches it, doesn't just slide across. For other cutting edges, easily shaving the hair on my forearm is a good determinant, where the hairs jump away.

If I do that I cut thru nail I think. I have same demand on a chain cutter as a axe or knife.

i find with beginners that getting each cutter similar is a much greater problem for them than the initial difficulties of simply having their file remove steel up to an edge. They try to sharpen a chain and think that they have, but it is still dull, and can't see that with how the edge looks or feels.

This is why vertical filing is much better. File don't go down, you go back as it should in tooth.

 

[Magnus]

I think learning to file well is not something that is easily taught from one person to another. I believe time and experience hones the skill. Sure, you can show a person 100 times how its done. But that person has to take what you've shown and make it happen with their own hands. After awhile, it comes together for some guys. Usually not residential tree workers though. I do stand firm in that most of them suck right up until the day they retire. There's a few exceptions I'm sure. I'm eager to meet one of them.

I teach filing here and starting of showing how to do it is useless. Better is to show what result they should be aiming for.
Younger guy's is snap up easier, they are not so set in their habits yet. I have loggers and arborists here that run saws 30-40 years and still and improved filing here. I have so far not had anyone leave without improving. You see it on the bars, chains, saws when they come back as well as hear it from them.
Interest is most important. Explaining the importance of sharpness is vital. Showing the differences of their chain they bring and the one they do here is very interesting.

Most realize pretty fast the gains of not just having a chain that cuts, but one that is really good. Production increase, less tiered , less fuel consumption, less wear on saws and more fun. More time logging and less time filing, service, filing, etc...

 

[Magnus]

There is no upper limit. It only gets better and better.

 

[HolmenTree]

Just waiting to get on the plane with my family ......off to Mexico for 2 weeks.
You guys got quite the discussion of sawchain about shaving hair, watching a chain cut in plastic.

I remember those old double end Oberg files , I had a few I bought off Sam Madsen .They were called Oberg 150 files.
They got poor in quality towards the end of their production. The rows of teeth got wavy on the edges and their cut was no longer precise as they used to be.
Best chisel bit files I own are early 1980's Windsor triangular chisel bit ....tooth row pattern as straight as an arrow.

 

[Jed]

Man, Egypt! Mexico!!... I think I'm moving to Canada.

 

[woodworkingboy]

If I do that I cut thru nail I think. I have same demand on a chain cutter as a axe or knife.

You may have the same demand as on a knife, Magnus, but there is no way in hell that a file is going to give anything as close to sharp as say an 8000 grit sharpening stone on a woodworking knife, worked up from 1000 grit and with 4000 between. Files or grinding wheels are really crude ways to sharpen cutting tools at best. Seen through a lens, the edge would be very irregular jagged. They suffice for the needs on chains, given the expense and time factors to get them sharper, but that isn't really at all sharp compared to what is required for other tools that need to leave a clean or polished surface, like a plane blade taking fine shavings off of highly figured dense hardwood, or probably a surgical knife. You say that lightly dragging your finger nail across a chain you've sharpened with a file is going to cut through the nail, I say bullocks. Emphasis on lightly, it will catch the nail, and what you want. A fine file might be comparative 400 grit at best, probably closer to 250. Even a fine diamond hone is likely around 600. Those don't give polished edges.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

Give a newbie a full file to sharpen a couple teeth, then a new file for a few, then the old one.

Akin to making someone body thrust, then ropewalk, then body thrust.

I once had someone tell me it took her 120 strokes to fix a rocked chain. I don't know if that was pure exaggeration or pure stupidity.

Files wear down.

 

[Tucker943]

These chains Magnus speaks of sound like nothing I've ever seen in the 30 years I've been exposed to the tree care and logging industry. They sound incredible. I wish my chains could slice entirely though a finger nail by lightly dragging the nail across it. The problem I have is that I cannot invest the time to go to such incredible measures only to lose most of that effort the instant I cut into a stump, dirty bark, or a cavity in a tree with punky dirty material. Having to juggle tree jobs as a whole, the business end of it, and a family, I'm limited to just sharpening chains so that they are very sharp. I would love to be able to do my work with surgical grade chains though.

 

[Mick!]

I teach filing here and starting of showing how to do it is useless. Better is to show what result they should be aiming for.
Younger guy's is snap up easier, they are not so set in their habits yet. I have loggers and arborists here that run saws 30-40 years and still and improved filing here. I have so far not had anyone leave without improving. You see it on the bars, chains, saws when they come back as well as hear it from them.
Interest is most important. Explaining the importance of sharpness is vital. Showing the differences of their chain they bring and the one they do here is very interesting.

Most realize pretty fast the gains of not just having a chain that cuts, but one that is really good. Production increase, less tiered , less fuel consumption, less wear on saws and more fun. More time logging and less time filing, service, filing, etc...

I don't suppose you've ever thought of videoing any of these lessons Magnus? I'd be interested.

 

[stig]

Yup. It is a balance.
Same goes for when to sharpen a badly rocked chain and when to simply toss it and put on a new one.
I thought of this thread today at work.
I picked up my former apprentice, now employee's saw and that thing went through the wood like a hot knife through butter.

Made me smile and think that someone taught him good

 

[Tucker943]

After you taught him, did practice hone his skill? Or were his skills complete after the lesson?

 

[stig]

He did a 3½ year apprenticeship with us, and filed pretty good after those years.
We have a rule about running dull saws, I really enforce that with apprentices.

Martin has turned into a timber falling beast, he is really good. In a couple of seasons he'll be faster than me and I'll never hear the end of it
He made an average of 63$/hr last logging season. Hourly age for those who don't bushel is about 20$.
Part of that is natural ability and being good at learning and being in incredible physical shape, part is that he just hauls ass when he works.

Hang up trees and get your saw stuck and you won't make any money in the woods. same goes for running a dull saw.

 

[Magnus]

I don't suppose you've ever thought of videoing any of these lessons Magnus? I'd be interested.

I am not sure how to do it as it is pretty much up to the guy I show to set pace and limits.


It takes a bundle of time to learn it the hard way and time I have, and a passion for it to.

The file is not a grinding tool it cuts. I have looked at teeth thru magnifying glass, I do tat every day, and thru microscope. Same as I did learning to sharpen knives. You can see on the color and reflection pretty easy if file cut or you just keep grinding.

Not many have the interest needed to find out how good it can be. Most limit them self long before they run out of ideas to improve.

 

[Magnus]

Some are here many times, snap up a bit and home to pactice then back again etc.
Others are like Woodworkingboy and Tucker, others just listen and try.
If it woks better they stick to it, if not they pass. Pretty simple.

 

[woodworkingboy]

Magnus, I'm very willing to listen and try, and appreciate any information. Sharpening has been the root of my work for a lifetime. Not much giving up and passing is the way i go about it. If sought after results weren't obtainable, I would have given up a long time ago. I use traditional methods from the countries where I trained, and that includes sharpening. I saw the results that very competent craftsmen could get, so when there are such models, there is no giving up. It's how I started in the woodworking profession when an apprentice, standing over stones eight hours a day for the first six months, learning what sharp is and how to get it with the right hand pressure, etc., and with many different types of knives, flat or concave or convex ones. I also cut the crap out of myself in the process. Your shop may be on some special ground, but every place I've been, a grinder or file is a preliminary tool to then working up to what is commonly seen as a polished edge, using other abrasives, water or oil stones, or hones of one type or another. Chains aren't practical to go that route for working saws, but you say you can get a polished edge on tool steel with a file that is some kind of ultimate sharp, I'd be very interested in seeing how. Sure, practice is a big part, but having the gear that can allow the results that you want is even more important, otherwise all the practice in the world won't get you there. Maybe lighten up a little too bro, don't say a discussion isn't serious because there are other points of view from your own.

 

[Tucker943]

Some are here many times, snap up a bit and home to pactice then back again etc.
Others are like Woodworkingboy and Tucker, others just listen and try.
If it woks better they stick to it, if not they pass. Pretty simple.

Magnus, I think you'd gain a better audience to the ideas and tools you share here if you weren't as condescending. I'm sir you've noticed, as I've listened to you complain about how no one wants to listen to you here. Truthfully, you have a lot to offer. You're clearly a top expert in the area of chainsaws. The disconnect between your words, and TH ears, is the fact that you act like a dick when instructing us on the err of our ways as you see them. You respond poorly to almost each and every person that offers information or ideas that contradict your own.

You've got a lot of good info to share. I challenge you to share and discuss in such a way that doesn't resemble a judge banging his gavel at the court room. Talk, listen, compare, and consider the fact that you yourself are not finished learning. I believe you'll develop friendships here and also find many of us will be much more inclined to have quality technical discussions with you. I'm being genuine. No smart ass intention at all. Chill a bit and connect with us on a level where we don't feel like we are being slapped on the knuckles with a ruler.

 

[Jed]

Chris,

May I offer that I feel that there is a bit of a cultural disconnect between yourself and magnus. What I mean is that, culturally, we Americans are largely (though we compulsorily deny it till we're blue in the face) concerned with how we will come across to other people, whereas, Scandinavians and Germans, in General--throughout this post, I will only be speaking in the widest generalities--are largely concerned with finding out truth. One way of finding out truth, (I've tried this btw, many times at work) is to make the biggest ass out of yourself that you possibly can, just to see if you can irritate anyone enough to work up the muster to try to refute you. It works, but I don't think that this is what Magnus is doing. He's simply stating that his chains are incredibly, sharp: sharp enough to cut a fingernail, and that he has frequently used magnification to examine his edges, and from these statements, the poor man, who is using English as a second language, has to encounter any amount of bluster from you and Jay and other Americans, like me who insist on treating everyone around here with kid gloves. (There, there... I'm sure we all have something valid to offer... etc.)

Now me, on the other hand. I can be pretty tough over the internet. If I were there with you in person, I'm pretty sure that I would be a super nice guy, because you could kick my ass. With Jay... the same. Over in Sweden with Mag... the same. However: if the three of you care to come over to Washington for a good ol' redneck cookie cutter... my square filed chain will kick all of your round filed chains asses, and that's that.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I wish my chains could slice entirely though a finger nail by lightly dragging the nail across it

Holy Damn Straight!!!

 

[Jed]

O.k... probably should have used some smilies. Drank a wee bit tonight. Just having some fun, boys... hope you understand.

You do understand right? Now I'm scared you guys really will come out to WA.

 

[MasterBlaster]

It's all good, my friend.

 

[Magnus]

Opposite to most I have lots of time to do very little and little time to do very much. My day often has 20-22 hrs and I might as well do something useful so I tinker with saws. I try 99% of experiances and ideas I hear (Not just ignore or desmiss), no matter how stupid it sounds.

I have tried square filing some. I tested the Atop cut system and filed what I call truly square filing were the top and side angle meet in corner.
The later is something i can agree is better than round filing.

I will say like this. I got a chain from a chainsaw racer to try and improve. It was square filed and cut very fast, made by a chain guru in USA and sold to competitor here. This chains speed was not noticeably faster than a chain I round file and put a couple hrs in it on. Not sure if a round file last as long and not sure how it compares in softer wood as I test in dry elm. I always have dry elm and it is pretty constant in its property's. And in order to compare you need same wood and saws speed/power to get a fair test out of it.

 

[Magnus]

Magnus, I think you'd gain a better audience to the ideas and tools you share here if you weren't as condescending. I'm sir you've noticed, as I've listened to you complain about how no one wants to listen to you here. Truthfully, you have a lot to offer. You're clearly a top expert in the area of chainsaws. The disconnect between your words, and TH ears, is the fact that you act like a dick when instructing us on the err of our ways as you see them. You respond poorly to almost each and every person that offers information or ideas that contradict your own.

You've got a lot of good info to share. I challenge you to share and discuss in such a way that doesn't resemble a judge banging his gavel at the court room. Talk, listen, compare, and consider the fact that you yourself are not finished learning. I believe you'll develop friendships here and also find many of us will be much more inclined to have quality technical discussions with you. I'm being genuine. No smart ass intention at all. Chill a bit and connect with us on a level where we don't feel like we are being slapped on the knuckles with a ruler.

OK in all honesty....
You must understand that everything I write is from my experience, not something I read on another forum or heard my second cusins best friend say.
I really don't care if you try or not, if you like or not... I don't feel a very strong need to have a audience here, or any were for that matter.
I reply to add what I can and really don't care if it is read by others than the intended poster I reply to or not, but if it is argued I find it surprising it is always same people that argue about other stuff than the topic or what content of post is about. If it is about topic it is always dismissing a statement and that without trying.

If I reply you take it personal and get your undies up your ass. I don't slap knuckles with ruler. I guess I could if that helps...

If I don't reply to the comments about me, personalities and other irrelevant stuff you say, just simply ignore the comments instead of replying you say I respond poorly.

Looks to me no matter what, It won't be right..

When it comes to saws and stuff around it I am most passionate and I don't argue, I try! If I read or hear something I haven't tested I try it. If it works for me I keep it in mind, if not I disregard it. The faster way of learning is to keep a open mind.
There is no limits to what we can learn, test, try out unless it is set by us...

 

[Magnus]

This is why I don't post so much and share more here. It is simply a waste of my time as it is not interesting.
Too much talk about me, too little talk about topic!

 

[Magnus]

Lets drop the talk about us and discuss what is on topic.

A note bout the ten degree file angle.

Most Oregon chain is to be filed with handle lower than 90 degrees towards chain/bar. About 10 lower.
This is as tooths top plate is not straight and when not doing it you get a bit too much hook in corner. It will cut, but it dulls faster, creates aggressiveness and in so vibrations, excessive wear and waste power.

When free hand filing the position of file is more important than side angles as that is what create the angle of top plates face were it cuts. This and corner is the most important parts to get correct. The position of file cut the surface and the top plates upper front were the "sharpness" is.