Mycor

[Frans]

Mycor, is only one part of the system. When you read the adverts, they tout their product as being essential for healthy plants.

But it is only a small part.

So if you ignore/ mulching, water, soil tests, aeration etc. the mycor will not live anyway.

So thats why I say 'snake oil'.

Also I have read that mycor. is photosensitive and much of it is sold in clear plastic containers.

Have you ever introduced worms to the soil?
They leave if they dont have the essential foods and environment to stick around and do their job. Been down that road.

We as humans tend to want to wave a magic wand and 'cure' what ails us.

The fact is, in order to make a substantial positive change to a tree's health and continued optimum growth, we MUST pay strict attention to the ENTIRE system of the tree.

Also, the adverts. for the mycor companies say that their product can 'bring' a declining tree back to health. 99% of the time this is untrue.

Just dumping some mycor around the tree and watering it in, is ineffective.
Thus, I say 'snake oil'.

Ever seen that product called 'Thrive'? Modern day snake oil salesmen.

 

[Paul B]

Superthrive? try putting a drop of it in a glass and leaving around for a few days.
I wonder why we dont seem to see any lab approved tests of these products, if they are as world chaning as they tout, wouldnt the patents be invaluable?

 

[NickfromWI]

I've been wondering about this superthrive stuff. Mostly because they are headquartered about 10 minutes from my house. Maybe I should pay them a visit.

love
nick

 

[RIVERRAT]

The point Paul brings up is why I stated false to your question Frans.
In different environments whether man made or what ever plants can survive
with out it's presence

 

[Frans]

Check out this web site. Grow your own mushrooms:

http://www.fungi.com/kits/index.html

 

[treetx]

Better yet, http://www.potseeds.co.uk/mushrooms/

 

[Mike Maas]

I like the idea of transporting soil from a planting site, even when there's no real means of transplanting actual roots.
There's a much higher chance of introducing (existing) mycorrhizae to a tree by means of the soil that existed around it, no ?

I'm going to pull a few quotes off the web to make a point.

The average commercial agricultural soil contains about 5,000 species of microorganisms per teaspoon, which does not provide enough diversity to protect the plant from diseases. A healthy agricultural soil contains 15,000 to 20,000 species, including 5,000 to 8,000 species of fungi.

A teaspoon of healthy soil contains 600 million bacteria, 100 to 200 micrograms of fungal biomass, 10,000 protozoa, and 20 to 30 beneficial nematodes. It also contains 200,000 to 300,000 microarthropods per square meter

There are a couple of ways to increase the diversity of beneficial bacterial and fungi in the soil. One is to buy a commercial inoculum, but such mixtures generally contain only about 80 species, which is not enough. It's better to use compost, as there are usually between 15,000 and 25,000 species in a compost pile, most of which are beneficial.

Mycorrhizal fungi infect roots and form symbiotic associations with most plants. The basis of the symbiosis is that the plant gains improved nutrient and water uptake and perhaps enhanced resistance to pathogens. The fungus gains access to the plants' photosynthate.

I want to speak to this last quote, because it has always made me wonder about commercial inoculums (and the other quotes speak for themselves).
If the spores are viable (LOL!), and they infect the plant and use photosynthates, is this not a stress when too many fungi gain access to the plant?
I assume the fungi reduce sugar levels to the point the fungus start to die off, and then as the plant recovers, a balance is found, but is this better than a slow, natural build up of fungi?

 

[treelooker]

I assume the fungi reduce sugar levels to the point the fungus start to die off, and then as the plant recovers, a balance is found, but is this better than a slow, natural build up of fungi?

Of course not, but "slow" is not a good way to go on a teetering tree when fast is possible. There is a use for introduced products, to jump-start the natural process. this from the phc ceu article:

Earthworms, arthropods, and other organisms aerate the soil and convert organic matter and minerals into forms more available to the tree. A number of references have reported that one cup of undisturbed native soil may contain the following: 200 billion bacteria, 20 billion protozoa, 100,000 meters of fungi, 100,000 nematodes and 50,000 arthropods. There are ways to encourage beneficial soil organisms:
• Use organic mulches for weed control, and amend the soil with composted organic material to provide a food source for soil organisms.
• Avoid over irrigation and excessive use of fertilizers, so the organisms do not drown or burn.
• Irrigate during periods of drought. Soil organism activity may be reduced due to dry soil conditions that are common in certain times of the year.
• Avoid unwarranted pesticide applications. Some fungicides, insecticides, and herbicides are harmful to various types of soil organisms.
• Use organic mulches to reduce soil compaction forces, moderate temperature, and maintain soil oxygen levels needed by beneficial soil organisms and roots.
Uncompacted soils have less root rot because they have better drainage, thanks to more pore space that air and water travel through. This pore space helps define the soil’s structure.

 

[Mike Maas]

None of that speaks to overdosing soils with what, at high levels, could become parasitic.
Notice there isn't a bullet on your list for adding mycor.
Arborists went through this with nitrogen, a little naturally occurring nitrogen is good, so a lot must be better. You are picking one type of fungus and marketing it as if it is a magic bullet. That is simply not the case.

 

[treelooker]

None of that speaks to overdosing soils with what, at high levels, could become parasitic. You are picking one type of fungus and marketing it as if it is a magic bullet. That is simply not the case.

Hey I am not marketing anything.

Pisolithus is one cosmopolitan/promiscuous genus of fungi that does not decay. Mike, how does this parasitism work again? I thought it was tree weakness that opened it to infection by decay fungi. If there are too many Pisolithus spores or strands, they will just die off won't they?

 

[Mike Maas]

Pisolithus is one cosmopolitan/promiscuous genus of fungi that does not decay. Mike, how does this parasitism work again? I thought it was tree weakness that opened it to infection by decay fungi. If there are too many Pisolithus spores or strands, they will just die off won't they?

Did I say decay?
What is the difference between a symbiotic relationship, and a parasitic relationship?
The Mychorrizal fungi break through the bark and access the phloem. They suck out the photosynthates. In return, they can move some water and nutrients from the soil to the tree, that might not otherwise be available.
Now let's consider the tree which has a good root structure but has sustained an injury to the crown, like you doing a crown reduction. Now let's also say you sell a mycor injection at the same time.
The tree will undergo an imbalance, of foliage to total biomass, because of the trimming. It now has more roots than it needs, and will spend lots of energy re-growing those limbs you cut off, compartmentalizing those wounds, and all the other processes associated with injury recovery.
At the same time, this tree is in stored energy crisis, and it will now have millions of anthropogenic fungi attaching themselves to the root system, parasitically removing sugars. And I say parasitically, because the tree doesn't need more root area.
You ask if the extra applied fungi just die off. I don't know for sure.
I suspect if they incubate (or whatever you call a spore hatching) they initially attack the root, and whether or not they survive depends on available sugars, and then the other soil growing conditions.

 

[TC3]

So it does in fact come down to testing soil(s). Why do I feel so fatalistic about it, then ? Our soils are shit... What's to test ??? "Gee, I wonder if the compact clay is off-balance ?" Sometimes, I go off the cuff with diagnosis. Sometimes it's justified. Start at "square-one" for every little thing ? Why ???

 

[Mike Maas]

After doing several soil tests you should start to see patterns in your service area, but there are times when you are just stumped on a diagnosis, then you can rule things out by process of elimination with a test or two.
Clay soils around mature trees are best improved from the top. Compost and mulch, not squirting what may or may not be viable spores, of a small sampling of what may or may not be native, into soil that may or may not support their growth, on what may or may not be a tree that will benefit (or hurt) from their being there.
Another good approach is to core aerate and rake compost over the area. If the soil conditions are right, the fungi will come. If you do your soil amendments and want to add a bucket or two of some good forest soil, go for it!

 

[Stumper]

Mike, Something to consider is that many trees are planted far outside their native range. It is possible for me to drive 1/2 hour and steal some good Forest soil..... from a coniferous forest. I am caring for many hardwoods planted in alkiline clay that are hundreds of miles from the nearest forest in which such species occur naturally. I don't view mycorhizal innoculants as a magic bullet or panacea but I do view them as a possible and plausible aid to the health and wellness of local trees .Particularly when incorporated along with aeration, vertical mulching and top dressing with mulch. Might help. Unlikely to harm.

 

[stehansen]

This stuff was tried on the farms back in the 70's in my area and without any measurable success. There were these tanks of innoculum and they metered it out into the irrigation water. My Pest Control Adviser considered each of these tanks to be a "monument to salesmanship". Some of the users swore by the stuff but none of them are using it anymore. Justin not only are they out of their range of soil types but many times they are in a different climate and/or altitude also. The biggest example of this here is the soquel redwood trees that are from the coast by Santa Cruz. They are beautiful trees but they aren't really made to survive the 100 degree plus summer days or the more alkaline soil here in the Central Valley.