My First Bid... NOW What?!?

[Spellfeller]

So wonder of wonders, I MAY have my first paid job coming up.

A co-worker needs some trees dropped in his back yard in preparation for a patio and deck. It sounds like a very straightforward project, though I haven't seen it yet. He's told me it's four or five small to medium sized trees, no tight proximity to structures or bad leans, all with room to flop, likely no climbing needed. He'd like the logs bucked into rounds and the brush left on site.

I'm a little conflicted about the whole thing. If I try to charge what a pro arb charges, I'm essentially saying my work and costs are comparable. They're not. If I bid lower, then part of me feels like a scab, potentially undercutting and taking work from a legit company with real overhead, insurance, etc. I take some comfort that I am at a middle price/quality point. Below someone with an ISA cert and a lot of equipment loans and above a guy driving by the property with a rusty extension ladder who decided to ring the doorbell. (That could be my tag line in advertising!)

He heard through the grapevine that I did my own tree work and asked me to consider the job. I'd like to help him out...just not as a volunteer. At the end of the day though, I don't think I can/should charge what a pro arb charges. It's just not apples to apples. Obviously, he's looking to save some money too.

So I'm really looking for your advice on how to price the job. I know I need to go over and check it out, develop a work plan, take lots of pictures and measurements (height, DBH). I've read everything I can find on TH about sales. Lots of folks calculate by half day vs. whole day and favor pricing by the piece over hourly. (While keeping an eye on the hourly math.)

What would you recommend for ballpark numbers for small trees in this situation? Just to pick a place to start--and assuming 5 trees--$150 a tree is $750. If I can do that in 4 hours, it's around $188/hr before I factor in my minimal costs (fuel, travel time, equipment maintenance/cleaning, etc.). Does a number like that make any sense at all? Is it too close to professional prices? Too low?

I'm getting a sense of why some folks don't dig the business side of trees!

 

[Grendel]

I'll give $100 a tree to drop them and walk, sometimes, no lines to set or redirects. I'll day rate at $350 to $500 depending on the person and the work. No overhead beyond insurance, it's all gravy. Mmmmmm Gravy.

A lot depends on what your local market is used to. Up here there's LOTS of old loggers with chainsaws who will roll the dice.

Cheers

 

[Spellfeller]

Thanks, Sam!

Assuming no other changes, i.e., still no lines or redirects, at what DBH (or height) does your $100/tree rate go up?

 

[Fiddler]

Are you stacking/piling the brush or just cutting it loose?

 

[Spellfeller]

Pretty sure he'll want to stack & pile, Fiddler, but I think he'll likely work alongside me to do that. That's to say, I won't be doing all of it by myself.

I think he wants to put some sweat equity into the job, even to the point of being a willing groundie if necessary.

 

[Fiddler]

When you look at the job, see what it would come out to at $10/inch dia. That would give you $100 for a 10" dia tree. With him doing the majority of the brush stacking (while you cut rounds) that should put you roughly in the ballpark for a starting figure.

Of course different species might need some adjustment...more brush usually takes a bit longer, etc.

 

[Levi]

Do it for a 6 pack! You'll be the hero of your work place for a couple of months.

 

[Spellfeller]

Thanks for the rule of thumb, Fid!

 

[Spellfeller]

I love me a barley pop, Levi. But I'm trying to be a bit more legit than "Will work for beer!"

 

[Levi]

Understood. I wouldn't feel bad about taking work from a legit company, it's just one job. Do you have GL insurance?

 

[Spellfeller]

Do you have GL insurance?

I don't. And as a guy who doesn't "fly without a net" in hardly ANY aspect of life, this gives me hives. (It's certainly an argument to work for beer only!)

I'll be up front about it with him, and it has to be a risk that he and I are willing to assume. I suppose I could have him sign a waiver.

Essentially the job needs to be as straightforward as he says. I realize it's not going to be a tree standing alone in the middle of a picked corn field, but it better be kinda close!

I'm encouraged that I've not had any mishaps in my limited two-year career. At the same time, I know it's not a big sample size!

 

[Grendel]

Hahah, I've done it for dinner before.

I don't have a set formula Jeff, it's kind of whatever the situation dictates. I know a lot of people spend a good deal of their time working through bids. I tend to shoot from the hip. It helps I freakin love this work. Like I'd do it for free half the time. . . probably not the best person to ask.

 

[Levi]

Sounds like you need to get your eyes on it a do some figuring. Personally I wouldn't take on too much risk, especially because he is a coworker at your day job. Could get ugly.

 

[Bermy]

Just make sure everything is super clear as to what you will or won't do for what price.
If he is going to work with you, you should do a safety brief, and write it down and get him to initial it, at least you could prove you identified and assessed risks and took appropriate control measures.
Sometimes when acquaintances hear 'you do tree work' they don't have any idea of the complexity and assume you'll just show up with a chainsaw a 'git 'er done'. Which is fine as long as everyone understands what the deal is BEFORE work starts.

 

[MasterBlaster]

But I'm trying to be a bit more legit than "Will work for beer!"

Hahaha, for sure!

Hahah, I've done it for dinner before.

That's what I charge my friends!

 

[Sgriff]

Mmmm graavvyy....

 

[Sgriff]

I currently charge $40hr for my services,whatever it is huge or tiny or even if I'm going over some other crap. All my tools,saws,tcia climber specialist,GL,liscensed contractor....if im towing anything it's extra.

somtimes i do time and half if over eight hours,that's what i sub to other companies at,been climbing 'professionally' 16 years now.

I do my own jobs too and those rates vary,risk vs reward type shit,friends get stuff free or at cost alot,when I first started I charged enough to make me happy and was more excited about getting the experience.

I am also in one of the most expensive places to live in the country...

 

[pantheraba]

One thing I have always kept in mind...I remember Butch saying this: "I don't get off the ground for less than $100"

Soon as I have to climb something the $100 kicks in as a base and I figure from that...usually try to guesstimate how many hours will be involved and figure on $100 per hour to get it on the ground and "moveable"...cut it up and leave it.

I have a chipper now so I can offer decent cleanup...and Alex has a big trailer and tractor that can move big logs...so we can do full cleanup. But that is a lot of work.

Full cleanup for us is often AT LEAST as much as the takedown...sometimes more (think big spreading oak with lots of brush)

I shoot for $100 per hour to cover the both of us. How much time of "us" the customer is up to them.

And I figure $100 minimum to simply drop and limb a simple tree. I like Dave-Fiddler's $10/inch idea....I'll start working with that.

Good thread you started.

 

[pantheraba]

Dang, Griff...that is not a nugget...that's a battle ship! Fine picture, bigger than anything I have ever cut.

A euc...right?

 

[Grendel]

That's a Dragon Griff. Wow man.

 

[Chris E]

Yea baby what a beast. I'm gonna throw a wild guess.. Lemon Scented Gum?

 

[Page]

Don't feel bad about under cutting people unless that becomes your standard. We all start that way. But don't go too low or that's what people will expect

 

[greengreer]

The best way to bid a job for a buddy is to not bid at all. Tell him you'll do it hourly and come up with a rate that is fair to both of you. If he must have an idea of the cost before hand then use your hourly number and try to figure on how long it will take you to get it done, then add a healthy margin of error. Your figure is now a ballpark estimate and tell him it will cost no more than that number but that if everything goes really well you will probably be able to come in less. People in general are much happier when you come in $50 under your bid, just don't ever ask for a penny more.
One huge wildcard into figuring out a number is the homeowner. You said he is going to help with the labor but do you know about how well he will work? Sometimes that can be more of a hindrance than a help.

 

[Fiddler]

I like Dave-Fiddler's $10/inch idea....I'll start working with that.

Gary, I can't take credit for the $/inch dia idea...I got it from Nic (timbertramp). He used it often as a base for bidding jobs when we worked together and it seemed to work quite well. He was often far more consistent/on with his bidding than I was when I figured hours/job.

 

[Sgriff]

Im almost positive that was a blue gum(eucalyptus globulus).