F
fishhuntcutwood
Guest
I think it was Gerry's book, and if not it was someone who knows a helluva lot more about falling trees than I do, but I know I've read and accepted to most always make your cut level.
How to fell a leaning tree.
- Thread starter emr
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brendonv
Tree Hugger
Level here.......................
I think.
I think.
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
I find the natural inclination is to cut perpendicular to the lean. Like it's some primitive instincts.
B
Blinky
Guest
It could be level in either example.
vl2007
Treehouser
level...always.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Where is Mr Beranek???
K
Knotahippie
Guest
SouthSoundTree
Treehouser
I think that I'd lean in the direction of a level face cut with an adjusted "gun" to compensate for the angle of lean in the cases where a tight falling lane is dictated.
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
Word
Burnham
Woods walker
F**kin' internet expert, checking in
OK, the answer is, it depends.
Always remember that if you pitch the face out of parallel with the stem, you generate swing to the high side (relative to the stem) of the face. On a side leaner, that will compensate for the gun and generally put the tree into your intended lay. But it also sweeps the top through a larger arc on it's way to the ground, so if you are trying to drop it between other trees, this can be a disadvantage. It also creates a somewhat (who knows how much) weaker hinge since the wood fibers in the hinge do not run perpendicular to the hinge, but rather on an angle.
Forming the hinge perpendicular to the stem gives you a fall that will miss the gun to the side the tree leans, by the amount the top of the tree is off of directly over the stump. But the top doesn't swing through as much sky, and if you aim the face to compensate for the distance the top is out of plumb, then you should hit the lay pretty well. And the hinge should function more reliably since the fibers run true through the hinge.
OK, the answer is, it depends.
Always remember that if you pitch the face out of parallel with the stem, you generate swing to the high side (relative to the stem) of the face. On a side leaner, that will compensate for the gun and generally put the tree into your intended lay. But it also sweeps the top through a larger arc on it's way to the ground, so if you are trying to drop it between other trees, this can be a disadvantage. It also creates a somewhat (who knows how much) weaker hinge since the wood fibers in the hinge do not run perpendicular to the hinge, but rather on an angle.
Forming the hinge perpendicular to the stem gives you a fall that will miss the gun to the side the tree leans, by the amount the top of the tree is off of directly over the stump. But the top doesn't swing through as much sky, and if you aim the face to compensate for the distance the top is out of plumb, then you should hit the lay pretty well. And the hinge should function more reliably since the fibers run true through the hinge.
N
Newfie
Guest
That's what I was gonna say!
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
The "it depends" was what I was thinking (and normally would say).. Every tree is so different to the surroundings at times.. You just have to go with the feel combined with the physics if that makes any sense...
When the tree swings round, how much height do you have available etc.... Canopy, targets...Species...
When the tree swings round, how much height do you have available etc.... Canopy, targets...Species...
gf beranek
Old Schooler
With side leaners technique on the stump alone is no guarantee to see them to a lay. Whether you saw the undercut level to the force of gravity or square to the stem. Even though there are certain truths with both methods that can be cited. B, covered both pretty well. Still in either case it comes down to a matter of degree and crossing your fingers that the hingewood holds.
On the stump most compensation techniques for side lean have come by over gunning the undercut away from the lean, leaving more wood on the tension side of the lean, and employing a dutchman in the lower corner. All of which is still just compensation and mere attempts to out wit the side lean. Indeed a faller can even over compensate.
In the woods losing a side leaner amounts to mostly just a big inconvenience for the faller. In the urban setting though attempting to swing a side leaner over infrastructure is a risk that only a fool would assume.
I have long believed, and pointed out to many people, that the only sure way to deal with side lean, or excess side weight, can come only by setting a guy line to hold the weight so the hinge can do its job. And ensuring that the hings holds is the most important thing.
For the urban tree worker who always has their rigging tools close by it is not that difficult to set a guy line for swinging a side leaner. And when done right the results are in the high 90's percentile.
For the timber faller working in the woods it almost always comes down to compensation techniques at the stump. Experienced fallers actually have a pretty good success rate with side leaners but only because they know which ones they can work with effectively. On the other hand the young'uns will always lose more side leaners because they haven't figure it all out yet. Such is the learning curve that all of us tree folk go through. Hey?
On the stump most compensation techniques for side lean have come by over gunning the undercut away from the lean, leaving more wood on the tension side of the lean, and employing a dutchman in the lower corner. All of which is still just compensation and mere attempts to out wit the side lean. Indeed a faller can even over compensate.
In the woods losing a side leaner amounts to mostly just a big inconvenience for the faller. In the urban setting though attempting to swing a side leaner over infrastructure is a risk that only a fool would assume.
I have long believed, and pointed out to many people, that the only sure way to deal with side lean, or excess side weight, can come only by setting a guy line to hold the weight so the hinge can do its job. And ensuring that the hings holds is the most important thing.
For the urban tree worker who always has their rigging tools close by it is not that difficult to set a guy line for swinging a side leaner. And when done right the results are in the high 90's percentile.
For the timber faller working in the woods it almost always comes down to compensation techniques at the stump. Experienced fallers actually have a pretty good success rate with side leaners but only because they know which ones they can work with effectively. On the other hand the young'uns will always lose more side leaners because they haven't figure it all out yet. Such is the learning curve that all of us tree folk go through. Hey?
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
About time you piped up!
;^p
;^p
Burnham
Woods walker
OK, the answer is, it depends.
Always remember that if you pitch the face out of parallel with the stem, you generate swing to the high side (relative to the stem) of the face. On a side leaner, that will compensate for the gun and generally put the tree into your intended lay. But it also sweeps the top through a larger arc on it's way to the ground, so if you are trying to drop it between other trees, this can be a disadvantage. It also creates a somewhat (who knows how much) weaker hinge since the wood fibers in the hinge do not run perpendicular to the hinge, but rather on an angle.
Forming the hinge perpendicular to the stem gives you a fall that will miss the gun to the side the tree leans, by the amount the top of the tree is off of directly over the stump. But the top doesn't swing through as much sky, and if you aim the face to compensate for the distance the top is out of plumb, then you should hit the lay pretty well. And the hinge should function more reliably since the fibers run true through the hinge.
I traded a couple of pm's with Lumberjack and it is clear that my post above is confusing. As I read through it, I am reminded of the wisdom of not trying to toss off a quick reply to a somewhat complicated question...especially after a couple of sips of scotch on a holiday weekend
.I'm gonna try a different approach rather than edit my post, just address the two suggested situations and see if I can write a bit more cogently.
So here's erm's picture.
View attachment 25683
If you form the face as indicated on the left, you have compromised the potential strength of the hinge since the fibers are not running true in the hinge. It's hard to say by how much...species certainly would be one of several factors in determining that.
If you are looking at the tree in erm's drawing from the south side and are felling it to the north, you have set up a situation where the top of the tree will hit to the right of the gunned lay by the distance the top of the spar is off to the right of the stump, so to compensate for that you have to adjust your gun to the left by that same distance, at the head of the lay.
If the hinge holds well, the top will not swing left or right, but will fall with the tree sweeping through a piece of space as wide as the horizontal spread from hinge to top, and as deep as the tree is tall, all the way through the fell.
If you form the face as indicated on the right, the hinge strength should be optimized due to the fibers running perpendicular to the hinge. Of course, depending on the degree of lean, that still might not be enough to hold the tree on the stump...Jerry described that issue in his post.
The gun should be accurate for placing the tree to the lay, again if the hinge functions well. The top will swing from right to left spacially, occupying the same dimension of space as the first one at the beginning of the fall, but that space becomes a narrowing wedge as the fall progresses and the top comes into line with the gun.
Boy, I don't know if this is an improvement or not :roll:.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Hahahaha.
B
Blinky
Guest
It is except in this sentence, don't you mean left?
The funny thing is, I was looking at the drawing as a head leaner, as though I was facing North and the tree was to fall from West to East.
The funny thing is, I was looking at the drawing as a head leaner, as though I was facing North and the tree was to fall from West to East.
Burnham
Woods walker
gf beranek
Old Schooler
It's a tough one to nail down into words. I spent days writing a short script describing what's being talked about here. And I'm still not done with it. So don't feel bad, B.
Just describing how to set the guy line to swing a side leaner is a mouthful in itself. When I get done I'll copy and paste, but it will be a while yet.
I been busy. Some cool stuff happening right now.
Just describing how to set the guy line to swing a side leaner is a mouthful in itself. When I get done I'll copy and paste, but it will be a while yet.
I been busy. Some cool stuff happening right now.
Burnham
Woods walker
Thanks, Jerry. You do such a great job of putting some complex concepts in to clearly written word. I can but humbly attempt to achieve a fraction of what you do so well.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
gf beranek
Old Schooler
I set rigging to swing many a side leaner in my day. And too swung many a side leaner using technique on the stump alone, but there only when confidence was high and the loosing of a tree would not put property or infrastructure at risk.
I watched Daniels cherry limb swing, it's not much unlike swinging a side leaner itself. But Daniels support line for the limb was "way" far forward of the stem and the lean. So the limb dropped more than it swung. It was about as close of a near miss as you could get without hitting something, if you get my drift. But he pulled it off and chalked it up as a success. Personally I think Daniel should have used a better example to show the method of "how to swing a limb". But that's Daniel. Oh well.
I watched Daniels cherry limb swing, it's not much unlike swinging a side leaner itself. But Daniels support line for the limb was "way" far forward of the stem and the lean. So the limb dropped more than it swung. It was about as close of a near miss as you could get without hitting something, if you get my drift. But he pulled it off and chalked it up as a success. Personally I think Daniel should have used a better example to show the method of "how to swing a limb". But that's Daniel. Oh well.
HolmenTree
Banned
Species and stump shape dictate a strong hinge. Long fibered spruce hingewood is strong so is the amazing strength of a DED American elm. I've cut many birch that proved just as strong but then I lost a mature birch side leaner in late summer dry season that wasn't so strong.
Strong lateral root flares at the corner of the notches apex are also great supports and work well with the angled butt cut.
But I prefer the square butt cut for ease of a reliable gunsight.
In the bush after so many trees you learn what works without fully understanding what you did. But in urban tree removal that skill and confidence goes out the window.
Get out the slingshot ,throwline, rope and puller.
Willard.
Strong lateral root flares at the corner of the notches apex are also great supports and work well with the angled butt cut.
But I prefer the square butt cut for ease of a reliable gunsight.
In the bush after so many trees you learn what works without fully understanding what you did. But in urban tree removal that skill and confidence goes out the window.
Get out the slingshot ,throwline, rope and puller.
Willard.
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