Anyone using can-fuel for "routine production work"?

[cerberus]

I do, in fact I won't even use the Walmart blend as I checked the msds's for the canned fuels (husqvarna & stihl are best but you really pay, then echo's, then true fuel which is what I use)

Starting to wonder just how unusual this is....I'd always reasoned that, given how much you can price tree work at, that using canned fuel was a small part of business but as I'm starting to do more jobs I can see how badly it's adding up (and I'm still pricing like shit, I probably used (3) cans of fuel felling&bucking an Oak the other day and it was only a $200 job so that's like 10% of the gross was for fuel..)

I swapped from ethanol-free gas when I found that ethanol was merely 1-of-3 bad compounds in pump-gas (and not even the worst offender of the 3)

and I figured the higher price of canned gave me:
#1 - better powerhead longevity, and
#2 - a touch more power (all my saws are modded/tuned/etc, would be lying if I said I didn't think I was eeking a bit more power from them with the canned fuel)
but it's not like these saws are thousands$$$

Would love to hear whether anyone else is using canned fuel on-the-job, I use my 10" / 25cc unit the most (by far), and he's seen ethanol-free fuel for the first ~1/2yr of his life, so I'm swapping him to pump-gas and figure that's a no-brainer (unsure I'll even bother going out of my way to the ethanol-free gas station..), my 355t has gotten canned his whole life and I don't intend to change that....the ppt266(polesaw 25cc) is a bit old, and just a reallly nice unit, so am leaning towards keeping him on canned fuel....dunno, would really love hearing whether others do this or if I'm a major outlier here and am just throwing away $$ !! Thanks

 

[cerberus]

Oh and since I know gas-quality can be regional, if anyone's got recommendations on gas stations to seek or avoid it'd be cool to hear!!

 

[Mick!]

 

[FireFighterZero]

Nice gif.

 

[Tree09]

I always mixed my fuel, never had a problem till this year. Had one bad 5 gallon tank, don't know how, but it took me forever to figure it out. Started reading how ethanol can separate the oil out, etc, got mad and went to using trufuel. Hoping it leads to less downtime. You gotta price stuff better if fuel costs are even being noticed, a 200 dollar job should be done in an hour or less, even by a pickup and chipper outfit like myself. I'm talking like less than 1 tank of fuel in a climbing saw kind of job.

@stig Uses nothing but canned fuel, in a logging setting, everyday. Buys it by the pallet. No messing around with carb rebuilds or anything, just work.

 

[SkwerI]

I never used canned fuel but believe highly in the value of premium mix oil. The mix oil makes all the difference considering that the oil is several hundred times higher concentration than any additives in the gas itself. Worrying about microscopic amounts of additives in the gas and then dumping 8 ounces of shitty mix oil on top of it makes no sense.

Experience showed me that the Stihl synthetic (grey bottle) mix oil is awesome and will make up for almost any quality of gasoline used, but I still used premium gas anyway. I have looked into a few dead saws (trauma victims) to inspect the engines and have found that even ported saws run for 10 years or more still look absolutely pristine inside. I almost never have any fuel related issues with any saws on the job. I have left saws on the shelf for 12 months or more with gas in the tank and they still fire up. Any issues usually blamed on 'ethanol' are, in my opinion, simply due to crappy oil in the mix.

Earlier this year I tried substituting the Echo premium mix oil (red colored) and it seemed fine at first. But it had a terrible smell in the bottle and I began having issues with saws not idling properly and not starting within a few months. Switched back to Stihl oil and all the issues cleared up. Maybe my saws aren't tuned exactly perfectly but maybe the better mix oil just makes the fuel burn so much better that it doesn't matter as much?

I will pay a lot for good mix oil but not that much. Canned fuel is stupid expensive and is an impossible expense compared to what I currently use, and what I currently use works perfectly. I already have all the advertised benefits of canned fuel without the cost.

 

[Tree09]

I only used stihl synthetic. Still had the one bad tank. Dunno what happened, but it made me mad enough to change.

 

[Frankie]

I’ve been using the motomix in my saws for years now. I like the convenience of being able to grab a saw off the shelf , top off with fuel and bar oil and go finish the job; even if the saw has been sitting for months. I like the way the saws perform and how clean and well-lubed the engine stays vs pump fuel /mix oil over the same interval. I like the fact that my saw is actually gaining compression and rpms 500hrs into the program vs other fuels/mixes where it’s likely “freshen-up time”(or much sooner depending on operator) all the while loosing compression and rpm! The Cost of STIHL OEM pistons and rings have gone up considerably for some models although there are suitable aftermarket alternatives like meteor for substantially less . Do they last as long as OEM ? I do not use them personally so ... I like the fact that the operator (me in this case) is not breathing in copious amounts of known toxins and carcinogens that are found in pump gas. The saw is a tool that allows you to complete a task, a properly modded / chained saw will allow you to complete the task 1.5x more effectively/efficiently than the same off-the-dealers-shelf model plus it’s enjoyable to run it! Is motomix worth the additional cost ? To some , maybe not ... To me, yes it is

 

[lxskllr]

My brushcutter goes through 1qt/hr almost to the minute, and my 661 will use about 24oz on a 20' pass on the mill. I'm not willing to pay for premix in these machines, when I've had zero issue with pump fuel. I go to the extra effort/expense to get corn free fuel, but that's my limit until it's either unavailable, or gives me problems.

 

[frans]

I never used canned fuel but believe highly in the value of premium mix oil. The mix oil makes all the difference considering that the oil is several hundred times higher concentration than any additives in the gas itself. Worrying about microscopic amounts of additives in the gas and then dumping 8 ounces of shitty mix oil on top of it makes no sense.

Experience showed me that the Stihl synthetic (grey bottle) mix oil is awesome and will make up for almost any quality of gasoline used, but I still used premium gas anyway. I have looked into a few dead saws (trauma victims) to inspect the engines and have found that even ported saws run for 10 years or more still look absolutely pristine inside. I almost never have any fuel related issues with any saws on the job. I have left saws on the shelf for 12 months or more with gas in the tank and they still fire up. Any issues usually blamed on 'ethanol' are, in my opinion, simply due to crappy oil in the mix.

Earlier this year I tried substituting the Echo premium mix oil (red colored) and it seemed fine at first. But it had a terrible smell in the bottle and I began having issues with saws not idling properly and not starting within a few months. Switched back to Stihl oil and all the issues cleared up. Maybe my saws aren't tuned exactly perfectly but maybe the better mix oil just makes the fuel burn so much better that it doesn't matter as much?

I will pay a lot for good mix oil but not that much. Canned fuel is stupid expensive and is an impossible expense compared to what I currently use, and what I currently use works perfectly. I already have all the advertised benefits of canned fuel without the cost.

I wonder if Stihl and Husky companies officially recommend their mixes over their canned fuel or visa versa.
In a profit sense, canned fuel must make more $ for the company , but at the same time, I have yet to see an official statement that canned fuel will protect a warranty over mixed fuel.
why sell both? Either ethanol fuel is bad, ooor with mix is okay?
I am cynical by nature so my thinking is that if I buy a saw and use official mix in my fuel, then I am following manufacturers guidelines

 

[SkwerI]

^ By law manufacturers cannot discriminate by brand of fuel or oil. All they can do is list minimum standards. Proving it is almost impossible and no dealer will ever attempt to deny a claim based on the brand of oil used. Much easier for them to just lie about some other excuse to deny a claim. So buying any brand of any product simply for warranty reasons is stupid.

This applies to any product, not just chainsaws. Cars, trucks, motorcycles, stump grinders, chippers, generators, anything with an engine. Brand loyalty for the oil to 'protect the warranty' is stupid. Manufacturers won't discourage it because stupid people make them lots of money.

 

[Frankie]

Customer calls Frankie with a processing job ... He wants a log truck load of 12-18 poles bucked to 18” and he’s willing to pay Frankie $20 per face cord to buck them only ... It turns out this is a big load - total of 25face cord ... 25face x 20 = 500 dollars total for job . Frankie uses a stock 461R running pump gas and STIHL ultra and it takes him 8 hrs to complete the job ... He uses 2.5 gal at $5 gal mix ...Frankie does exact same job with ported 461R and it takes him 5hrs ... He uses 2.5 gal at $30/gal ... Let’s see how Frankie fares in each scenario shall we ? Stock 461R 500-12.5 = 487.5 ; 487.5 / 8 = $60.90c /hr ... Ported 461R 500-75=425 , 425/5 = 85/hr plus Ported Frankie has bought himself 3 hours and can either call it a day or (providing there is more work) continue cutting for 3 additional hours... With pump gas / mix oil (let’s Assume STIHL ultra is used) Frankie needs to tear down and de-carbon every 100 hrs of use , there is just no way around this (at least with pump gas in Frankies’ Area ) - let’s say Frankie does 12 jobs a year so he needs to do this once per year (12 jobs x 8 hrs = 96 hrs runtime that year) in order to ensure max longevity of the engine ... Motomix Ported saw Frankie knows he’s GTG for 500hrs before he even takes a peeksy-poo ! 500 x 85 =42,500 and 1000+hours is achievable even with new strato saws .. So for 500hrs of run time , Stocker running pump gas (which needs de-carbon every 100hrs ) will need 5 tear down “cleanings” and will make Frankie 500x 60.90 = 30,450 ... Assuming a run time service life of 500hrs (which is very low - 1000-2000 is possible even with stratos saws) the pump-ultra saw will make Frankie 30,450 and need attention every 100hrs , not bad for a $1000 saw ! Trouble is .... motomix ported 461R will run 500 hrs without touching a thing and will make Frankie 42,500 or (42500-30450) or 12050 more !!! Not bad for a $1000saw and some mods !!! Pump-gas / mix cheeper? Not in this scenario ! but let’s say ported vs ported pump vs motomix ... yeah the pump gas is cheeper but how long will the pump gas saw run without TLC every 100hrs? vs knowing you can rip 500hrs with motomix ... A guy can run whatever he wants in his saws ... I’ve been there , done that and will Stick with Mix ... Also , should you want to sell the saw, motomix since day 1 always sounds nice to the potential buyer - If He’s worth his salt he knows what he’s getting

 

[Nutball]

How much motomix can a guy buy instead of getting a saw ported?

 

[Frankie]

A woodchuck would chuck as much wood as a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood

 

[flushcut]

Pump gas for me.

 

[Burnham]

Read my position in a nutshell, based on decades of experience, here...

What's Your Favorite Saw You Own?

In my saws

www.masterblasterhome.com

 

[lumberjack]

Regular pump gas, Stihl grey bottle mix, send it. I don’t worry about ethanol or anything else for saws.

I’m running 100LL in my side by side, but that’s a different topic.

 

[Frankie]

STIHL ultra is excellent oil no doubt ...

 

[Nutball]

I was thinking of buying Sunoco's storage type blend in 55gal drums. The price isn't too bad.

 

[lumberjack]

Having consistent fuel is important for tuning... I can't see any advantage working by paying more to accomplish the same thing. Or maybe I've been fortunate to not have very many saw problems (most were self inflicted) in the 17 years I've been doing trees and 22 years since we started grinding stumps.

I still have dad's 031, I imagine it'd still fire up running the same spark plug it had 30 years years.

 

[Frankie]

Consistent Fuel ... that’s the ticket right there , some areas have , some do not !

 

[Magnus]

In mixed fuel the oils often have various property's. Like most fully synthetic oils versus mineral oils.
Its often not just the fuel that is different.
Running gas from station here with mineral oil builds carbon. Change oil to a fully synthetic and it will crawl in under carbon and you cook the saw.
Its important to know how fuel mixes are different before changing fuel mix.

I try to tell people not to change fuel mix, if it works, don't mess with it...
If you change fuel mix make sure its clean inside first. not just piston top, but under piston, crank case cylinder top, transfers, carb, intake etc...

 

[Tree09]

If you only run synthetic oil, and then switch to canned, you should be fine right?

 

[SkwerI]

I can show you the piston and cylinder of a 10-12 year old ported Husky 372XP that ran on Stihl synthetic its entire life. Saw commited suicide jumping under a falling tree trunk. Zero carbon buildup and compression was as good as when it was new. If you're running Stihl synthetic or something as good then you will never have carbon buildup. shall I go to the garage and start taking pics of cylinders for you? No need to switch to canned fuel IMO.

If you're out in the wilderness with no gas stations available within 50 miles then I can see the possible advantage of having a few pallets of canned fuel dropped in by helicopter. But in the US most people have access do decent gas. The only real advantage to canned fuel is for people who do not use enough to justify mixing their own. It is not marketed for production use because it makes no sense for production use.

 

[Tree09]

Well, i have a tendency of doing trees for awhile, then not doing them for awhile. The bad fuel i had was freshly made, but the headache was so much i just don't care anymore, I'm using canned at least for awhile. It's more expensive yes, but the cost is completely negligible imo. When you are making hundreds of dollars for every tank in a climbing saw, who cares? The larger saws drink the stuff, but once again, who cares? The volume/ cost is so small compared to the work done.

Awesome to know i don't need a tear down tho!!! Thx man