Another descender for your contemplation

[Frans]

I disagree. I don't think we here bear the responsibility to looking out for the other guy. We present information as we see fit or desire, but in the end, it's caveat emptor.

Cant argue with that. Alea iacta est

I don't think forum visitors really look at a thread like this and go, "well Burnham seems to like this thing, and Nick admits rarely ever using one, but he seems to be fond of it, too...I think I'll get one and start using it right away."

I hope your experience is better than mine.

We here, in my opinion, should be free to just chat.

love
nick

All too often our words here are taken as gospel.

 

[Frans]

I have a question, Burnham. And please, altho I come off abrasive, I truly don't mean to.

In your post: 'Mechanical backup to Kong double ascenders', you post some most excellent solutions for doing just that; backing up the ascender.

My question to you is, do you think it is necessary to back up the rack or even the figure 8?

 

[Burnham]

I like to use a Klemheist knot to back up my fig 8. It turns my 8 into a self-braking descender so that I stop if I let go. I learned it from the Tree Climber's Companion, by Jepson.

Disclaimer: the above statement is not intended to take the place of formal instruction by a certified expert. Neither myself nor my lawyer are certified experts in anything except Donkey Kong. Anybody reading the above statement is responsible for their own safety and may not blame me for an accident even if I cut the tree down while you were in it.

Sean, are you placing your Klemheist above the 8, as Jepson shows? If so, let me offer a suggestion, one I think is a great improvement.

Instead of a long backup tether hitched above the 8 and attached to your harness at the central waist mount, use a short tress cord hitched to your rope below the 8 and binered to the leg strap on your brake hand side.

Now, instead of needing both hands to decend, you only need one...your normal brake hand grips the friction hitch and squeezes it and the rope together, sliding the hitch down. If you loose grip with your brake hand, the hitch is free to grab and exert braking action on the 8.

Don't miss the point that the backup is only creating a braking action...your life support is still the 8 and the rope it's mounted on, anchored to the tie-in point you selected in the tree. The only reason the backup would come into play is if you lost control with your brake hand...it's automatic, you don't have to remember to let go of the backup hitch. This is not the case with the Jepson method...all your life support is transferred away from the 8 onto the hitch, and you MUST let go of that hitch to have your rappel arrested. It's been shown in testing that even experienced rappelers have a hard time letting go in that situation.

 

[NickfromWI]

Nowadays when I show someone how to backup an 8 or other device, I only teach the "backup below the device" method. I think it is perfect, or very near perfect.

There are other backup methods, but they can find out about them on their own!

love
nick

 

[Burnham]

I have a question, Burnham. And please, altho I come off abrasive, I truly don't mean to.

In your post: 'Mechanical backup to Kong double ascenders', you post some most excellent solutions for doing just that; backing up the ascender.

My question to you is, do you think it is necessary to back up the rack or even the figure 8?

Yes, I think it's a good choice to make. Either do it by having a ground belay...you know, of course, that minimal downward pull on the rappel line by a ground belayer will stop the rappel in it's tracks...or by backup with a friction hitch as I described in my previous post to Bounce. I feel Jepson's method, the one most used by tree climbers, is nearly useless.

 

[Burnham]

Nowadays when I show someone how to backup an 8 or other device, I only teach the "backup below the device" method. I think it is perfect, or very near perfect.

There are other backup methods, but they can find out about them on their own!

love
nick

My opinion as well.

 

[sotc]

i dont want to have to read disclaimers like bounces, were profesionals here mostly, if that rack looks complicated, dont use it with out help

 

[Ace76]

Best Rack IMO

http://www.onrope1.com/store/index.php?p=product&id=461&parent=14

 

[OTGBOSTON]

Good thread boys. I think fancy descenders for long ascents are much more important on the left coast. I sure do enjoy reading all about them though

carry on........

 

[wiley_p]

Burnham and Nick, why on earth are you discussing racks with no mention of the extreme hazard associated with using them?

Their is a reason why the Petzl stop, and other descending products are more widely sold by tree equipment companies.
The Petzl Stop, the Anthron, Gri-gri etc have built in safety features. The rack is wide open unless a completely separate locking method is installed into the system.

On further thought, I understand why Nick does not mention it, as his experience with tree work is not as in depth as yours Burnham. But really, their is a very good reason why the rack is not widely used in tree work.


The rack REQUIRES a completely separate back up.

Closest tool to a rack that tree workers use is the figure eight. And that really should be used with a separate back up. Figure eights however can employ a 'built in' locking feature, by using the rope. This can be used even if that figure eight has no 'ears'.

We used a "Completely separate safety line" with a rope grab or a tautline.

 

[Burnham]

Years ago I used to do high rise window washing. Kind of fun, got to do some of the tallest buildings in Seattle. My normal descender was a 'fitch' which was just a small four bar rack with the hyper bars. Worked great for up to 600' descents.

Your use of the term "fitch" made me think of this industrial descender, often used by high angle access workers...antenna towers, water tank painters, window washers. Do you think that the term you're using might have derived from this descender, Dave? Ever see one in use?

They are said to work really well, but are HEAVY and BIG. I've ridden one exactly once, a drop of only 45 feet from a microwave dish I did some mount repairs to up on a steel lattice tower by a fire lookout, assisting a radio tech years ago.

It looks like it would twist a rope pretty strongly, but I don't recall it being a problem that one time, fwiw.

http://store.pksafety.net/fiskdescender.html

 

[MasterBlaster]

$161? Why does it have to cost so much? It's just an '8 on acid and steroids.

 

[Hobby Climber]

All this talk about descenders got me thinking of an old post I remember reading over at AS before all the nonsence started years back.

It was in regards to long descents from tall trees using shorter ropes.

It was a simple trick to just tie a stopper knot at the end of your rope (Tail) to prevent it from going through your descending device!

I had the good forture to remember this little trick on my way down a 118' cottonwood tree using 120' of line placed 90' up through a FS. My rope was tied to the saddle, up through the FS and back down to my Fig.8 . That would only gave me 60' of safe descending.

On my way down I remembered the artical & STOPPED! As I looked to see how much rope I had left, a very uneasy feeling ran through me once I saw about 7' of line below me!!!

That was the closest I ever came to experiencing gravity the hard way!

These days its rare to find me up a tree without tieing a stopper not at the end of my rope!!!

Live & Learn, trick it to live and learn from it! Safety First Eh!!!


Sorry for the Derail but thought this to be helpful.


HC

 

[Burnham]

$161? Why does it have to cost so much? It's just an '8 on acid and steroids.

Big hunk of high quality stainless steel finished to a fair-thee-well and a small market, would be my guess.