Friction Bollard?

treesmith

treesmith

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I'm in the process of acquiring a new lowering device. I "want" a GRCS, but don't know that I can justify the cost at this time. I'm considering a regular friction bollard for the time being. It would be the same as the GRCS using the aluminum bollard, it just won't have the lifting capability. (And will be $2000 cheaper to boot.)

On most of the rigging videos I've seen, they will have a GRCS set up along with a Hobb's or other friction bollard for lowering. On Charlie Pottorf's video of the big red oak job in Atlanta, they had five lowering devices. One was a GRCS, I think one was a Hobb's, and then a couple or three red fixed bollards of some sort. But I've never seen or heard of anyone else that uses them.

I have had trouble in the past with groundmen not tensioning the rope properly on a port-a-wrap, leaving it "hanging". Then, when the piece is cut, the portie sags even further, then snaps rather ungracefully back up as the tension catches up. It seems to me that a fixed bollard might be easier for a new groundman to use.

Anyone here have any experience with the fixed bollards? Karl Kuemmerling sells one for $235. That is much more appealing than the $2400 that a GRCS will cost at this time, even though I know it won't perform all the tasks that the GRCS will. I figure I can buy one of these now, and pay for it in one or two jobs. Then later on when I have a big job or two coming up, I'll add a GRCS to my arsenal.

Any advice????? :?
 
A straight bollard is tensioned the same as a port a wrap so your groundies won't find it that much easier. The larger diameter bollard will make it easier to fine tune the friction.
 
Fiddle block setups absolutely suck when you're lowering pieces 50' or more. It's fine if you need to rig down a limb 18' high over the pool screen, but expecting a groundman to keep 300' of rope organized is unobtainable in these parts.
 
I thought you could use a fiddle block to pretension and the porty to lower with?
 
For that specific purpose slings are available that allow you to cinch the porty tight up to the tree....loopie slings...or whoopie slings, something like that. I think they are made from Tenex. Probably, even a relatively untrained groundie could manage them well.

Re-reading your post...I guess the problem isn't with the porty being snug to the tree, it's with the rope.....sorry.
 
Many of the guys I work with have difficulty trying to figure out how to open a non locking carabiner. If you work with groundies capable of setting up a fiddle block, then you're in a completely different world than me.
 
Skwerl said:
Many of the guys I work with have difficulty trying to figure out how to open a non locking carabiner. If you work with groundies capable of setting up a fiddle block, then you're in a completely different world than me.
Click to expand...

We have a GRCS which they get for the most part. We don't have fiddle blocks but they seem like they could work.
 
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  • #10
I guess what I'm really asking is if the fixed bollards are worth fooling with or not. You guys that already have GRCS's, do you lower most everything with the winch spool, or do you put on the aluminum bollard? It seems like lowering big pieces would cause a lot of premature wear to the winch spool that could be avoided by using the bollard.

My previous problems with the portie aren't in the attachment; no matter how tight you cinch it, the portie itself hangs down on its own. Only the tension of the rope holds it upright. And often, the portie is already at waist level, so it's difficult for an unexperienced (and absent-minded to boot) person to get the rope tight enough.

Still hoping to hear from someone who uses a regular friction bollard...just wanting some feedback on them...good or bad.
 
I have never used a fixed bollard other than with the GRCS. If you can't get a groundie to understand how to use a Porta-Wrap properly after a few tries then maybe try to find a new groundie? I'm not trying to be rude or harsh, but it is rather simple to use and I would hate for you to miss out on having a very useful tool.
 
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  • #13
I have a large port-a-wrap, as well as one of the old style that favors a ship's anchor. I also have an assortment of tenex slings that I have made up, some whoopies, some eye-slings.

As I said, my main problem (I should say concern) is that because the portie is not rigidly attached to the tree, the "dance" that it does as the cut piece begins its descent is someday going to cause the rope to cross on itself and bind the load. It hasn't happened yet, and might never happen, but it seems possible.

A fixed bollard, on the other hand, would be more stable and seems less likely to cause any problems with the rope.

The heaviest piece that I've lowered and caught on a portie was about 600#. I've heard others talk about lowering pieces weighing 3000# and more with a portie, but considering the snatching I've seen mine do, I'd be quite nervous about even 1000#.

I just thought a fixed bollard might be a good fix to the problem.
 
Ok, I understand what your saying. After you are done rigging the limb, and after you wrap the porty, the porty is hanging down? I see how the porty would dance that way, but if you remove the slack the porty stands stright up and you shouldn't have any problems. I do see what your saying with the fixed bollard.
 
A fiddle block is really the next step IMO.

You put it on, independent of the port-a-wrap using gibbs ascenders.

Brian is right, you have to have a brain and desire to use it.

a fixed bollard will help with what your talking about, but slack removal is still a challenge.

Have you done a flea-bay search for a hobbs? It is less expensive than the grcs.
 
Oh you were just on too big of a sea going row boat to get on the special sea detail for docking . A bollard is just a giant cleat IE friction device .Big for a ship ,little for tree rigging . The principle is the same .

Rigging is rigging .Doesn't make a diff if it's a 500 pound tree limb or a 40,000 ton ship except obviously the ship would use larger stuff .;)
 
Treesmith, You need to aquaint yourself(?) and your help with the concept of "sweating in". It is NOT hard to suck the slack out of the system when using a port-a-wrap.As for the KK Bollards-I was always curious about the $500 ratcheting version-Not the self tailing winch used in the GRCS but still a tool that is supposed to be able to LIFT as well as lower.
 
I remember that the first time I used a porty, there were some slack issues. It doesn't seem like rocket science, if you see for yourself that it's not the ideal practice, and try to make corrections. Sure hard to see anyone lasting in the business if they don't want to, or can't recognize that. Saying that doesn't solve your problem though, just kind of makes it a bigger problem.
 
How come you'all are using such inept groundies. To keep the price down?
I'm not trying to be a smartass, I have just been wondering about this for a while.
From reading different posts in the House, it seems to me that in the US groundies are a different and much inferior race from climbers.
I mean, really, if someone can't figure out how to take the slack out of a porty, they have no place in treework IMO.

And before you ask, in my outfit EVERYBODY can perform both in the trees and on the ground.
If we get a climber stuck in the tree for some reason, everybody in the crew has to have the ability to go up and perform a rescue, we have no use for someone, whose peak performance is stuffing branches into a chipper.

Whew!, that came across as some sort of European supremacy rant.
Please don't take it like that, it wasn't meant to be.
I just keep seeing these complaints about useless groundies and wonder why you keep them.
Should be easy enough to get better help in these times of unemployment.
 
Stig IMO US groundies suck because nobody wants to do hard work anymore. So if they have half a brain they are sitting at a computer somewhere. The pay scale is also an issue as many cannt afford to pay much as workmans comp etc is so high that it drives the cost out of reach . I personally only have one employee and lots of equipement to compensate. My employee is also a climber so completely understands whats going on. When we have technical jobs requiring lots of lowering into a small area my wife comes in to help.

Treesmith, I understand your concern about the porty but I think that maybe you need to rethink the issue. I personally only know of one instance where there was an issue.Buddy of mine was negative blocking (roping down the wood using a block) they had an 8' piece about 18" in diameter and the groundy set up the porty very snug against the tree so there was no movement. When the block was coming off and introduced that foot or so of slack into the system BECAUSE the porty couldnt sag at that moment the rope pushed a loopthrough the porty ring, when the slack took up the loop cinched up OVER a wrap making a hitch. The load caused the rope to melt and fail at the wrap, block luckily landed next to the tree and did no harm. My buddy now always leaves slack in the porty attachment to prevent this, so it seems like a solid mount to the tree would make this freak accident more likely............

Gotta love those 'FREAK' accidents that maim ya:|:
 
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  • #24
I didn't introduce this thread for folks to get fired up about abilities or price rates or anything else. I asked if anyone had any experience with the fixed bollards. I have been in this line of work for 24 years, but 20+ years of it was natural crotch rigging all the way. I picked up on false crotch rigging several years ago, and am easing it into my work practice. I have for years worked only one groundie, (have worked quite often alone), and worked all the ropes myself from the top of the tree. I have done big jobs alone, rigging and lowering as many limbs as I had rope for, descending to untie and move the brush, then climb back up the tree. I'm just looking for better/faster/safer adjustments to my work practices.

Thanks PC for sharing the incident with the portie. I guess the sag of the portie would eliminate the slack getting through to the wraps.
 
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