Weak Oak

[RIVERRAT]

I mentioned the weak crotch to my customer. The husband & wife became quite concerned. I am sure like myself most here have seen much worse.

This oak is heavily shaded on one side by another oak. The neighbors house would be a target.

Just wanted to hear what some here would do. I am leaning toward weight reduction.

 

[arborworks1]

Definetly reduction. Cabling would be good insurance. A steel rod above the crotch as well.

Nice looking tree, Looks well cared for.

 

[Old Monkey]

That doesn't look too bad to me considering that its an oak. It kind of looks like the two tops bend towards each other higher up an try to balance themselves some.

 

[MasterBlaster]

It looks fine to me.

 

[RIVERRAT]

If we didnt get the wind & bad ice storms every 4-6 yrs. I wouldn't be worried about it......One other thing worth mentioning this is a Pin Oak. Brittle wood for an oak.

 

[treesandsurf]

It's hard to tell from your pictures.

Check out the bark at the area where the two co-dom's separate. When there are 'pushed out' furrows it is usually a sign of a sound attachment. Thump the area to listen for decay and pull away any debris and inspect deep into the union area.

At first glance looks like a candidate for end-weight reduction and dynamic cabling.

More pics!

jp

 

[RIVERRAT]

Ya I wasn't happy with my pics either.

The second illustration from the left with bark inclusion is pretty much what I am dealling with. If you enlarge the pic of the crotch you can see it.

 

[Bodean]

I'd do nothing and monitor it, Maybe just a teeney bit of end weight reduction on the target side.

The crotch looks pretty nice from your picture.

 

[RIVERRAT]

I'd do nothing and monitor it, Maybe just a teeney bit of end weight reduction on the target side.

The crotch looks pretty nice from your picture.

That was my suggestion to them.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Think I would use Cobra (dynamic cabling) to cable it so to speak and safe guard the neighbors house in case. Ice is a serious issue and heavy. I may be reading the crotch wrong, but I do a lot of oaks here and I don't like anything that is a threat to a structure. We get wet snow here and it has the same result as ice on the oaks. Would also want to know if other limbs more horizontal are also a threat by what I saw in your pics. I also agree with the reduction and some thumping to test the soundness of the wood.

 

[Bodean]

I think your picture's fine.

Appears to be nice taper, the leads don't look to tall past the crotch.

The ears of co dom crotches are something to look at sometimes too.

Any codom is "bad" but jurisprudence would tell me to lighten up the target side ever so gingerly. Maybe some widows too.

When people prune for high winds and such on a mature tree >40 years old, I think the tree may be accustomed to the wind by now.

That's just me over here saying that.

 

[treesandsurf]

Great learning opportunity, thanks for posting.

Would the fact that the two codominate leaders are of similar size in diameter be something to consider as well? It has been stated that laterals of close to equal size of the parent trunk form weaker attachments, maybe a factor here as well?

Thats just me way over here saying that.

jp

 

[Frans]

Tree care really does change according to the area you live in. Like Bodean says, for us on the West Coast, that tree looks fine. No need for alarm.
But with the ice storms, well thats a whole 'nuther ball game.

IMO, dynamic cabling is best suited for younger trees. Here in my area the oaks get so big that only steel EHS cable is really up to the task of holding the tonnage or re- directing the tonnage in the case of failure away from a target.
But with the ice, maybe it is better.
Does the Cobra do well being frozen? Or does it over time become brittle?

 

[Drella]

Cabling, high within crown. 1/2" lags- 3/8 soft cable. Done.

 

[Frans]

"If your only tool is a chainsaw, then all trees are firewood"

Often we rush into 'remedies' to 'correct' defects. When in fact, the tree has lived for years and years on it's own.

 

[treesandsurf]

Your leaping logic can be tricky to follow, Frans.

Sure, trees live on their own without arborists, but isn't it our job in this situation to manage a potential risk to an acceptable level so that the tree environment can blend well with the human environment?

Who mentioned anything about chainsaws?

jp

 

[Frans]

The chainsaw reference is a quote by someone, forget who. Shigo or Matteck or someone.

I too am in the tree business, working trees is what I do for a living. But... all too often we jump in with 'cures' when maybe, just maybe, the tree is doing fine on it's own.

Think of the pruning rules. At first the I.S.A stated remove no more than a third, now a fourth. Rules change, best management practices change.
At our community college Britton Tree was the company managing the mature oaks.

Each and every one has multiple cables. One tree (I counted) 30 cables! Some even with big springs.

But like I said earlier, each region has different climates. I know next to nothing about the effects of an ice storm.

If you can follow my logic, your one up on me!

 

[treelooker]

Steel cable 2/3 to the top would be good insurance. Lags mean wide holes; wirestops mean narrow holes--nobrainer there. Good observation on the branch growth self-correcting the codom attachment.

dynamic cables are good when movement would build strengthening tissue. I don't see the split getting better by movement, hence the steel.

You'd have to prune a lot to lessen the strain on the defect. A lot of wounding and disfigurement vs. two 7/16" holes drilled through sapwood.

 

[lumberjack]

I've wondered if the tree would become dependent on the steel cable.

Hence, I would Cobra it. No damage trumps your 7/16" holes!

 

[Frans]

Lags mean wide holes; wirestops mean narrow holes--nobrainer there.

Doesn't the wire stop always work against the bark, and the cable slip back and forth in the hole?
Seems like it would continously abrade the bark at the point of the wire stop, and continously widen the hole for the cable.?

 

[RIVERRAT]

Steel cable 2/3 to the top would be good insurance. Lags mean wide holes; wirestops mean narrow holes--nobrainer there. Good observation on the branch growth self-correcting the codom attachment.

dynamic cables are good when movement would build strengthening tissue. I don't see the split for noe
You'd have to prune a lot to lessen the strain on the defect. A lot of wounding and disfigurement vs. two 7/16" holes drilled through sapwood.

First time, some time ago that I read your post I thought you where a hippy. A by all meens save the planet type. I have over time come to respect some of your thoughts. You are knowledgeable.

Whith that said, there is no way in HELL I would sell or tell a client of mine to cable this tree. Simply because that lead will fail with Cobra or any other method used in a few years.
Yes it is fine for now.
5 yrs. from this point in time things will be much different with this situation.

 

[RIVERRAT]

"If your only tool is a chainsaw, then all trees are firewood"

Often we rush into 'remedies' to 'correct' defects. When in fact, the tree has lived for years and years on it's own.

Frans I greatly appreciate your thoughts on this. But we need to remember when sidewalks, streets, & houses are planted under trees things change.

Yes Trees have lived for years with out fellas running through them with saws. But the above mentioned facts change things a bit

 

[treesandsurf]

Those beautiful old oaks on the JC campus are a sad situation indeed. Poor old things got all their interior growth stripped out and new cables added when I was a student there three years ago.

Rather than reduce end weight they reduced beginning weight!

One tree, ten different arborists and ten different opinions.

jp

 

[treelooker]

there is no way in HELL I would sell or tell a client of mine to cable this tree. Simply because that lead *will* fail with Cobra or any other method used in a few years. ..
5 yrs. from this point in time things *will* be much different with this situation.

Please explain these 2 "will"s, and loan me your crystal ball. I do not understand how anyone can be certain of either. how can the tree exert over 7 tons of force to break a 3/8" EHS cable?

snarf, abrasion is a possibility (that is lessened by lining up the holes right), but won't the tree grow callus in response, like it does when 2 branches rub?

Carl, dynamic cable rubs where it loops around, needs frequent adjusting, and is vulnerable to rodent predation. It has a place where movement will strengthen a fork, but that does not seem to be the case here.

 

[lumberjack]

I haven't noticed those problems, but I will gladly differ to your vast experiance.

I only have put about a dozen cables up in the last 3 years, phc is way more your thing