Will this work for my top anchor?

[cashstore]

My goal is a top anchor that will a) be used with a GRCS, b) can handle dynamic loads should a rope not 'run,' and c) be remotely set and retrieved from the ground.

And yes, I understand that's a tall order.

To make it set/retrievable from the ground I was going to use this I.S.A 'Arborpod' method of a static removable false crotch. He gets into it from 2:00, pulls over the stem at 3:30, and retrieves it at 4:30.


So now, what to use? I have a loopie sling with a 5K WLL in the truck. But every smart person I've talked to about this method essentially said 'eh... it might work, and you might overload the sling, which will slip, glaze, and ... all I'm saying is I wouldn't do it.'

So if that doesn't work, what I need is a super strong 'loop' with no moving parts. In the video above the guy with non-ironic mustache used a 3/4" rope and a bowline. That won't fly for big loads and GRCS use.

Enter the Lift-All Lifting Sling. I have zero experience with cranes or this product. But in girth hitch configuration - which this would be in attached to my block - has a 4,200 WLL. I'd prefer a little more, but that'll do.

But it's a sling for a crane, and cranes aren't known for dynamic movement. If I make a mistake and the rope doesn't run, I could shock load this. Also sometimes that branch I'm lifting on the GRCS breaks free and you get some dynamic loading.

With that in mind, will this work for my purposes? If not, do you all have a better idea?

"B" below:

 

[WoodCutr]

can get a rigging ring froctionsaver from Arbsession
how much weight do you intend on lifting with the GRCS while using this rigging point? rings have some friction but really not so much that I would worry about it when using the GRCS unless I was maxing it out on load or had multiple re directs
I have a few blocks/pulleys and just climb up and set them, I cant think of a single time on a tree job that I have set rigging from the ground TBH


option 2:

Rope one over selected rigging crotch, back down to block, tie bowline in rope and replace the sling
Rope two, main rigging line, put inside block as you normally would, keep track of both ends on the ground, this will be your moving rope to lift and lower as usuall
Rope one again, once block is ready use rope one to hoist it up to the selected crotch and base tie this rope onto the tree

you now have a "floating rigging point" set from the ground
edit, I have realized this may be confusing, PM me and I can explain it you you without flooding the forum if you want

 

[SeanKroll]

Are there still friction saver- style false crotches with a ring and a block?

 

[WoodCutr]

Are there still friction saver- style false crotches with a ring and a block?

here is a similar one, doubled up frictionsaver with a block in the bite made by the sling, he included a DIY retrieval cone in the video, so I figure maybe can be set from the ground also?

 

[SeanKroll]

Clever! Wonder what the "efficiency" is?

 

[WoodCutr]

Clever! Wonder what the "efficiency" is?

I figure its probably the exact same or maybe a little better than rings alone, I have never really had an issue with ring friction tho, even for lifting but then again I rarely do massive stuff so friction isnt an issue

 

[greengreer]

That old arborpod video is a blast from the past. I remember watching it years ago and really wanting to try that big bowline trick. Never have...

What are you lifting that 3/4 rope for the block isn't going to cut it?

I made up a ring and ring for setting remotely. I also have used a block and a shackle when we needed to beef things up a bit. Basket configuration is nice as it lets you get away with a smaller sling.

We have hung blocks with a 3/4 rope before, just thru a crotch and base tied. Really the crotch is the biggest concern at that point seeing 4x the load.

 

[cashstore]

can get a rigging ring froctionsaver from Arbsession
how much weight do you intend on lifting with the GRCS while using this rigging point? rings have some friction but really not so much that I would worry about it when using the GRCS unless I was maxing it out on load or had multiple re directs
I have a few blocks/pulleys and just climb up and set them, I cant think of a single time on a tree job that I have set rigging from the ground TBH

Thanks for the reply!

So, I'm looking for something where I can use the GRCS to it's capacity - 2K without a cut-in. If you're telling me that a ring in ring friction saver isn't too much friction for these purposes, I'd take your word on it. Others have said the opposite, though. The thing with a GRCS is you'll always need at least 1 other redirect to get down into the GRCS, and so I assumed it would be too much friction to do a 'top notch and lift.' I usually use two redirects just because ultra slings are awesome.

I've had this guy below in my cart to purchase for awhile. What's stopped me is a) my assumption that it would have too much friction, and b) it felt like too little bend radius for 3/4" line at ~2k pounds. And really, that 1,500 lb branch will drop about a foot even with perfect form, so I really want to have the proper bend radius when I'm at the bleeding edge of expensive rope's WLL.



I will DM you about your basal anchor setup. I think I have the gist, but want to me sure.

 

[cashstore]

That old arborpod video is a blast from the past. I remember watching it years ago and really wanting to try that big bowline trick. Never have...

What are you lifting that 3/4 rope for the block isn't going to cut it?

I made up a ring and ring for setting remotely. I also have used a block and a shackle when we needed to beef things up a bit. Basket configuration is nice as it lets you get away with a smaller sling.

We have hung blocks with a 3/4 rope before, just thru a crotch and base tied. Really the crotch is the biggest concern at that point seeing 4x the load.

"WoodCutr" above mentioned something similar about throwing a rope over a crotch and basal tying the block. Perhaps I'm missing something, but that rope is taking 2x the force of my block, yes. If my groundie doens't let the rope run, or my limb breaks early, I can easily see 3k or 4k going into my block, so 6k or 8k onto that rope that's basal tied over the crotch in the tree. Seems like this is a 'once or twice' event in the life of the rope, yes?

Also, didn't understand the sentence: "What are you lifting that 3/4 rope for the block isn't going to cut it?"

Thanks for the reply.

 

[cashstore]

here is a similar one, doubled up frictionsaver with a block in the bite made by the sling, he included a DIY retrieval cone in the video, so I figure maybe can be set from the ground also?

So in the past I've used this configuration on a basic 4k WLL ultrasling the Canadian's made for me. Toss a 4k WLL block through the opposite side. I can set this from the ground.

By my best estimate I've put 1,400 lbs on this, but never more.

 

[WoodCutr]

So in the past I've used this configuration on a basic 4k WLL ultrasling the Canadian's made for me. Toss a 4k WLL block through the opposite side. I can set this from the ground.

By my best estimate I've put 1,400 lbs on this, but never more.

View attachment 126602

what rope is that sling made of?
ive put probably close to 30 thousand pounds on a 3/4" tenex whoopie sling and she held
if your sling is rated for 4K, you can safely put 8K on it in your configuration there no problem, take this with a grain (or pinch) of salt, I have had close to 7K on my GRCS and no issues, all the rigging held just fine
remote setting from the ground may not be super good either as you will want to choke the trunk with your rigging if you are rigging so big you are worried about strength on anything

 

[Sep]

Why not just climb the anchor tree and set your block. Seems like it’s worth it for peace of mind and a simple setup. Keep it simple.

 

[WoodCutr]

"WoodCutr" above mentioned something similar about throwing a rope over a crotch and basal tying the block. Perhaps I'm missing something, but that rope is taking 2x the force of my block, yes. If my groundie doens't let the rope run, or my limb breaks early, I can easily see 3k or 4k going into my block, so 6k or 8k onto that rope that's basal tied over the crotch in the tree. Seems like this is a 'once or twice' event in the life of the rope, yes?

Also, didn't understand the sentence: "What are you lifting that 3/4 rope for the block isn't going to cut it?"

Thanks for the reply.

double the weight on the limb you are rigging, the rope wont see any extra tho, 4K on the rigging is 8K on the limb and still only 4K on the rope

 

[WoodCutr]

The thing with a GRCS is you'll always need at least 1 other redirect to get down into the GRCS

not true as long as your GRCS is below the rigging point, often even just on the same tree and you are good as long as the rigging is high enough its pretty hard to exceed the maximum angle allowed by the GRCS fairlead, unless im missing something
never had to put another block over my GRCS, but ive only got like 4 uses on it so YMMV
also, I would 100% advise against lifting a limb if you are maxing anything out on WLL, I personally follow the same rule as cranes and try not to go over 75% wll when lifting anything that isnt sitting on the ground

just go out farther and cut smaller, rent a lift or crane if needed
1 day with a crane is half the cost of a new GRCS the way I see it

 

[cashstore]

Why not just climb the anchor tree and set your block. Seems like it’s worth it for peace of mind and a simple setup. Keep it simple.

my side business is this tree work. I have a day job but fell in love with climbing and top handle saws.

my businesses' niche is exclusively suburban fenced-in back yards. 100%. the type of shit other companies don't want to do because they can't get equipment back there.

all this means I climb 100% or my jobs. and setting my block, setting a redirect, setting my friction saver, it all gets to be a pain. I've become world-class with the Notch Big-Shot and throw line manipulation. all that is to say... if I can set and retrieve my block from the ground... why the hell not? I already do on light stuff, but I'd love to be able to go heavy.

so indulge me: why wouldn't that crane sling work for what I'm trying to do? or do you have a better solution that isn't climb the tree?'

 

[cashstore]

what rope is that sling made of?
ive put probably close to 30 thousand pounds on a 3/4" tenex whoopie sling and she held
if your sling is rated for 4K, you can safely put 8K on it in your configuration there no problem, take this with a grain (or pinch) of salt, I have had close to 7K on my GRCS and no issues, all the rigging held just fine
remote setting from the ground may not be super good either as you will want to choke the trunk with your rigging if you are rigging so big you are worried about strength on anything

the ultra sling is made of "TUFF 12 100% polyester hollow braided rope.". bought from Elevation Canada. I appreciate you saying that the WLL should be doubled in that basket configuration... I was thinking that myself that they probably listed the WLL in the chocked configuration because that's how ultra slings are designed to be used.

question on your statement about 'wanting to choke the trunk if you are rigging big weight.'. wouldn't my proposed crane sling remote set from the ground be choking the shit out of that branch or crotch? I understand it isn't as robust as a cow hitch or timber hitch, but a girth hitch does choke. I'd have no issue putting my big block into an ultra sling and setting that by hand and putting 3k pounds into it. those can be somewhat loose, whereas that crane sling will always be tightened.

am I missing something?

 

[WoodCutr]

to set from the ground will be very hard to choke the trunk

a limb is NOT a substitute for the trunk/bole of the tree if you are after strength
you cannot inspect the rigging point from the ground for rot, cracks, woodpecker or beetle holes, racoon turds, old cable/brace, etc
your sling is good for over 20KLBS single line pull, doubled up to make the sling then doubled again for your rigging point like so, MBS around 80 thousand pounds in theory
GRCS good for at least 6 thousand pounds, dont ask why I know this
the knots in your bull rope will the the weak spot probably
also, for your setup I would install the sling in reverse of normal, tail through the ring to choke so its not rope on rope friction, then install the block in any pocket


*setup im describing above*

 

[WoodCutr]

if I can set and retrieve my block from the ground... why the hell not? I already do on light stuff, but I'd love to be able to go heavy.

I think the entire thread has pointed out why its a bad idea
dont take it personally, just what I have observed so far, just climb it and put the block on the tree like normal, if you are serious about doing tree work that shouldnt be an issue at all, I and thousands of others do it this way every day of the week because its the right way 9 times out of 10

 

[greengreer]

"WoodCutr" above mentioned something similar about throwing a rope over a crotch and basal tying the block. Perhaps I'm missing something, but that rope is taking 2x the force of my block, yes. If my groundie doens't let the rope run, or my limb breaks early, I can easily see 3k or 4k going into my block, so 6k or 8k onto that rope that's basal tied over the crotch in the tree. Seems like this is a 'once or twice' event in the life of the rope, yes?

Also, didn't understand the sentence: "What are you lifting that 3/4 rope for the block isn't going to cut it?"

Thanks for the reply.

"So if that doesn't work, what I need is a super strong 'loop' with no moving parts. In the video above the guy with non-ironic mustache used a 3/4" rope and a bowline. That won't fly for big loads and GRCS use."

3/4 has about a 2500lb WLL at 10:1. That's pretty big for mostly static rigging.

Using a basal tie to a block, the block sees two times the force of the piece. and each leg of the line holding the block sees that amount as well, therefore the crotch that the block rope is thru will see 4x the original load, not accounting for friction. Friction will reduce the load but it's hard to quantify.

When you're getting into considering breaking 3/4 the tree can quickly become the weak point, and if you're using adjacent trees the rope can certainly do some tissue damage.

 

[SeanKroll]

A leather tube friction saver can preserve the supporting tree.

 

[friedrich]

where are those numbers coming from? are you using loadcells?

the bend radius/ bend zone of those triple ring sling is plenty.

srt up to set up rigging is so quick and easy.

 

[friedrich]

the ring sling/block combination will scratch up your rings/blocks pretty bad. ive had scratches that needed a touch up with sandpaper, to keep the rings rope friendly.

 

[SeanKroll]

IIRC, there were some set-ups with a welded steel ring on one side and a steel block on the other side. IDK how that runs and affects bend radius.

 

[SeanKroll]

Here is one brand


of better bend radius in a ring.


Set up as a false crotch, with rings on both sides, might fit most of your needs. I don't know block efficiency versus ring efficiency for lifting.

If you're really going all out, rope walking to your rigging point to install your block on a loop sling might be in order.
Remote removal would work with a preset pull-down line.

I've used the endless loop sling, like you showed, for a static, remote set, remote removal block. The cover is protection/ a chafe sleeve, and the structural part is all internal.

Mind the diameter of the sling compared to the block to prevent to much outward source in the cheek plates, especially if not using a threaded anchor pin (ISC-style). I'm not sure of the risk.

 

[Bart]

I think the tension ratio on a ring is about 1.4 and a block is 1.1 to 1.2 so that's how much extra tension happens during a lift and how much aerial friction benefit you get during a lower.