gotta get this one off my chest
- Thread starter murphy4trees
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Mellow
BCMA
Every tree and every cut is unique, even though they may be similar. Knowing what to do and when to do it is more important than having a "formula" or "rule" stating, "this is how you make a cut." That knowledge comes with experience.
I don't know the context of the video, or the guy in it, but it sounds like his main purpose is to teach safety. I don't think it's unreasonable to teach one "canonical" cut that'll work 99/100 times, even if it's inefficient, especially if the main goal is safety. If your complaint is it becomes The One and Only True Way®, then I'd agree with you. A lot of safety can't be standardized, especially with something as variable as the natural world. People should be expected and encouraged to learn on their own in the real world, and they can then modify/extend/contract the canonical cut, but you have to know the rules before you can break them.
I'm not in the biz, so I don't know if it's a real issue or not. I only answer to myself. I could hold a saw with my feet, and I'm the only one that'll say something about it.
I'm not in the biz, so I don't know if it's a real issue or not. I only answer to myself. I could hold a saw with my feet, and I'm the only one that'll say something about it.
Mick!
TreeHouser
Species of tree, size of branch and how it’s orientated (horizontal or upward)
plus the saw your using, ie a battery saw won’t let you spear cut with confidence, is as, if not more, important than cut selection.
plus the saw your using, ie a battery saw won’t let you spear cut with confidence, is as, if not more, important than cut selection.
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I've often seen, on a horizontal-ish branches or segment, two approaches presented for a snap cut. Perhaps more often, under cut then top cut outboard and less often undercut with top cut inboard using the rationale that a partial break in the overlap can grab your saw in the first scenario. I'm not sure in colleges if the first version is taught and people sometimes convert after their first saw grab incident. Same rationalizing I guess applies to a spar snap cut although you should ideally have your saw out prior to release. But suppose you pinched it. The overlap can grab your saw if you do your backside cut higher. Yeah if the chunk is that heavy it should have had a Reg past center cut or a notch to guarantee it can't come back in a wrong direction. I'm just ruminating for the sake of discussion. I think I converted to inboard top cut but I don't really think about it anymore. Check a textbook and betcha it says outboard top cut. I don't know if texts show higher vs lower back cuts on a snap cut (assume some spar angle? else direction somewhat irrelevant if manually manipulatable).
There's also aligning the top cut but then the snap action vs fiber hold issues is jeopardized taking away the reason you chose a snap cut - a clean break.
ps how do you get autocorrect to stop messing up everything you type? grrr
There's also aligning the top cut but then the snap action vs fiber hold issues is jeopardized taking away the reason you chose a snap cut - a clean break.
ps how do you get autocorrect to stop messing up everything you type? grrr
greengreer
TreeHouser
Couldn't agree more Dan.
The industry standard seems to teach how and not why. Especially when it comes to cutting. The bore cut everything is one that really frosts my ass.
I also love the blanket 2:1 load on your tie in point when using a basal anchor. Let's completely ignore one of the most important factors in all of tree work: friction.
I'm really hoping the 2 rope standard doesn't make it over here. That'll just be plain hard to deal with. Seems like alot of guys are doing it voluntarily here. Makes no sense to me alot of the time.
This is why Gerry's book is timeless. The options are laid out, with consideration given to applying them situationally.
The industry standard seems to teach how and not why. Especially when it comes to cutting. The bore cut everything is one that really frosts my ass.
I also love the blanket 2:1 load on your tie in point when using a basal anchor. Let's completely ignore one of the most important factors in all of tree work: friction.
I'm really hoping the 2 rope standard doesn't make it over here. That'll just be plain hard to deal with. Seems like alot of guys are doing it voluntarily here. Makes no sense to me alot of the time.
This is why Gerry's book is timeless. The options are laid out, with consideration given to applying them situationally.
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
i believe autocorrect would be a browser layer attack/adjustment in standard add on browsers like Chrome/FF setts
>>but thru OS setts for embedded IE/Edge >> browser welded in Windows many differences of extreme exception
>>code webpages for everyone else; and oh yeah and for frigging IE also exceptions ALL over the place
.
Paradigm Shift is a fave concept from bigger world;
In best strategizing, generally find a solution, not listed as a solution, but as a paradigm >>always catches my eye
>>in full face acknowledgement that any path has a weak point, Achilles Heel, inversion to opposite need, leveraging other half of yin/yang etc.
To me, a linear paradigm ping pong force back and forth can be actually cyclic growth around and around higher in time of plant etc.
>>as way to leverage more from finite >>more stretching the farther from pivot for node interval spacing
.
i think the vid class showed techniques they wanted to present, on whatever tree given (perhaps even given that day after scripted beforehand)
>>so, they were teaching concepts wanted to insert, more than that tree like lxskllr 99% theory of need and CYA on what expose to possibly greenest viewers.
Saw a yearbook example of such mismatches when in school as big lesson
>>2 page layout for school pool was given to 2 separate people.
>>1 faithfully showed their star diver off board gracefully in air>>as facing page showed them painting school emblem in the bottom of empty pool at that deep end
>>wasn't meant to be a joke, and ran full production before caught..
i also, personally think anything with Running Bowline that will hang smooth spar lengthwise/vertical should have Half Hitch preceder
>>especially if teaching
.
i always hashed sides to stop any kind of leathery run of bark or young more elastic underlayers in hinging for just reasons Daniel states.
>>down here Pine especially can give a leathery strip run pulling hard to one side as other doesn't match to ballast straight
>>my imagery of some barber chairs is this same leathery outer layers, compressing hard and seizing as a impenetrable wall of force on front close side
>>as more of inner bone of tree keeps charging forward and can see some separating between 'leathery outers'/skin and hard bone innards
>>massive fight between 2 unyielding, matching, monster forces gives split-ting decision of BC separation from monolith motion
>>when BC most expressed this way forms a triangular piece in front of outer wall receding force fading to top pinnacle as a pivot for rest of tree to lean across
>>head hit and weight sometimes causing: failing and pushing back the triangle wall balance pivot
>>for folding backwards and sit down barber chair imagery run out full length (rarer)
.
At one point, i rigged things of size that roped sideways with main rope towards CoG and a helper butt tie(i woulda put main hitch point out a bit further in vid)
>> both ropes would usher main hitch point under main support or not quite to for some pull away at separation, then untie quick release or even a few times cut the short scrap butt tie as not needed after this
>>much smoother hit reduction and hand off
>>this evolved to using the hinge as that disposable butt tie in this tandem rig, then just ripping w/o face as the disposable butt tie/temp support
>>especially if also trying some turn
Probably wouldn't have screeched it so far, if not working on that separate butt tie model in head as did with wood rather than rope fiber now
'Ripping' (rather than hinging) can be less predictable, and leave a tougher problem working the strained, perhaps some twist rip ; if does't play out nice so takes more skill i think to do right, even tho looks like slopping, is just relaxed, quick s-kill
>>even looks too easy, someone else goes to imitate in rush can be disastrous
So, perhaps more feel needed for ripping, not as pretty, and show it in class and someone will do it to tree not removing..
(old film can't remember if they really made any distinction between this was dry dead vs. green for handling)
>>also, more risk if in tree also, and would assume this is not for just a bucket class
>>whereby the bucket isn't the method taught; just teacher's roaming podium.
.
Same leathery imagery for those outer layers using to good, as was foe in barber chair study
>>find knowing these linked properties and usages more fully as model guides; allows better crafting by hands during assemblies
.
Right on; on the hard undercut positioning also, i tried to make it easier 2 ways in one move
>>from center of branch as center of clock, i look at hinging down to 6 as most loaded path/axis
>>so would try to take some edge off feeding to 5o'clock some so not feeding into harshest pull gravity angle of pure down
>>this cut is also easier to see from up top
>>if fading right , with weight to left tho, find some Dutch is in order as power assist ushering into open waiting face.
>>so a lil sloppy miss-match on bottom harder to see left can be A-ok...
But, again, sloppy relaxed easy quick good skill; imitated in wrong setting counter-indicated!
>>hard to be sure of audience!
>>but thru OS setts for embedded IE/Edge >> browser welded in Windows many differences of extreme exception
>>code webpages for everyone else; and oh yeah and for frigging IE also exceptions ALL over the place
.
Paradigm Shift is a fave concept from bigger world;
In best strategizing, generally find a solution, not listed as a solution, but as a paradigm >>always catches my eye
>>in full face acknowledgement that any path has a weak point, Achilles Heel, inversion to opposite need, leveraging other half of yin/yang etc.
To me, a linear paradigm ping pong force back and forth can be actually cyclic growth around and around higher in time of plant etc.
>>as way to leverage more from finite >>more stretching the farther from pivot for node interval spacing
.
i think the vid class showed techniques they wanted to present, on whatever tree given (perhaps even given that day after scripted beforehand)
>>so, they were teaching concepts wanted to insert, more than that tree like lxskllr 99% theory of need and CYA on what expose to possibly greenest viewers.
Saw a yearbook example of such mismatches when in school as big lesson
>>2 page layout for school pool was given to 2 separate people.
>>1 faithfully showed their star diver off board gracefully in air>>as facing page showed them painting school emblem in the bottom of empty pool at that deep end
>>wasn't meant to be a joke, and ran full production before caught..
i also, personally think anything with Running Bowline that will hang smooth spar lengthwise/vertical should have Half Hitch preceder
>>especially if teaching
.
i always hashed sides to stop any kind of leathery run of bark or young more elastic underlayers in hinging for just reasons Daniel states.
>>down here Pine especially can give a leathery strip run pulling hard to one side as other doesn't match to ballast straight
>>my imagery of some barber chairs is this same leathery outer layers, compressing hard and seizing as a impenetrable wall of force on front close side
>>as more of inner bone of tree keeps charging forward and can see some separating between 'leathery outers'/skin and hard bone innards
>>massive fight between 2 unyielding, matching, monster forces gives split-ting decision of BC separation from monolith motion
>>when BC most expressed this way forms a triangular piece in front of outer wall receding force fading to top pinnacle as a pivot for rest of tree to lean across
>>head hit and weight sometimes causing: failing and pushing back the triangle wall balance pivot
>>for folding backwards and sit down barber chair imagery run out full length (rarer)
.
At one point, i rigged things of size that roped sideways with main rope towards CoG and a helper butt tie(i woulda put main hitch point out a bit further in vid)
>> both ropes would usher main hitch point under main support or not quite to for some pull away at separation, then untie quick release or even a few times cut the short scrap butt tie as not needed after this
>>much smoother hit reduction and hand off
>>this evolved to using the hinge as that disposable butt tie in this tandem rig, then just ripping w/o face as the disposable butt tie/temp support
>>especially if also trying some turn
Probably wouldn't have screeched it so far, if not working on that separate butt tie model in head as did with wood rather than rope fiber now
'Ripping' (rather than hinging) can be less predictable, and leave a tougher problem working the strained, perhaps some twist rip ; if does't play out nice so takes more skill i think to do right, even tho looks like slopping, is just relaxed, quick s-kill
>>even looks too easy, someone else goes to imitate in rush can be disastrous
So, perhaps more feel needed for ripping, not as pretty, and show it in class and someone will do it to tree not removing..
(old film can't remember if they really made any distinction between this was dry dead vs. green for handling)
>>also, more risk if in tree also, and would assume this is not for just a bucket class
>>whereby the bucket isn't the method taught; just teacher's roaming podium.
.
Same leathery imagery for those outer layers using to good, as was foe in barber chair study
>>find knowing these linked properties and usages more fully as model guides; allows better crafting by hands during assemblies
.
Right on; on the hard undercut positioning also, i tried to make it easier 2 ways in one move
>>from center of branch as center of clock, i look at hinging down to 6 as most loaded path/axis
>>so would try to take some edge off feeding to 5o'clock some so not feeding into harshest pull gravity angle of pure down
>>this cut is also easier to see from up top
>>if fading right , with weight to left tho, find some Dutch is in order as power assist ushering into open waiting face.
>>so a lil sloppy miss-match on bottom harder to see left can be A-ok...
But, again, sloppy relaxed easy quick good skill; imitated in wrong setting counter-indicated!
>>hard to be sure of audience!
On the topic of whether its in a textbook or class here's another tweak on a snap cut. If you're cut n chucking on an angled stem, a normal snap cut can let the block pivot on the join fibres which on brittle wood does two things. It sets the block in motion if the block pivots on the join wood which starts some dynamic motion/energy which the join wood has to tolerate if your intention is "don't break yet" and secondly it bends the join wood further encouraging breakage. So I noticed that if you cut 90 degrees off the lay the join wood is loaded edge to edge and doesn't move much at all, no dynamic load and almost no bending motion, so your block stays put until you grab it a pop it off. Within reason.
To clarify, the dynamic load being resisted is when the downhill kerf closes and clunks. The clunk makes a force spike.
Is this anywhere in a book or class or is it passed on seat of the pants stuff? Does anyone else do this?
To clarify, the dynamic load being resisted is when the downhill kerf closes and clunks. The clunk makes a force spike.
Is this anywhere in a book or class or is it passed on seat of the pants stuff? Does anyone else do this?
gf beranek
Old Schooler
I concur. Well said and exampled.
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Yes, I do that.
A stick stuck into the first kerf might help some situations.
A stick stuck into the first kerf might help some situations.
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
i think i did as Bart/if i get picture
leave single thin/ frail vertical hinge column of fiber directly against downward gravity pull;
then snap across the thinned axis to break off
Even on larger , punch thru center as really relying on high and low connection's spread for support leverage, not center fibers
.
i like the vertical support rib a bit to left, but still as full length as possible
>>to give more leverage on snap off to right against that rib
Step further is to angle rib to about 12:30 rather than high noon
>>this 12:30 strategy works well with to left more to give snapoff to right more leverage strategy
>>lots of support column left @15 degrees support to your cos(support cause) ~97%
>>but @ same 15 degrees sin is 25% !!
So virtually same support column against gravity proper; and 1/4th the weight is helping make the sidewards snap off easier
>>schedule pull across thin axis properly/slight tilt
>>That sudden 25% is the impact of change from nowhere for side force for everything @15degrees off centrterline/just off of pure vertical, with very little support loss
>>this sudden, counter-intuitive change is what makes the side force so volatile, and car frame etc. alignments so critical
>>only here orchestrated to help, rather than cripple efforts
.
Tried Dutch close for bottom pivot contact on compression side for even less fiber to break across
>>tension fiber must remain connected at top, compression at bottom can self seat theory
Couldn't get the close hard to support as pivot for tension and still get support hold long enough to work the snap across
leave single thin/ frail vertical hinge column of fiber directly against downward gravity pull;
then snap across the thinned axis to break off
Even on larger , punch thru center as really relying on high and low connection's spread for support leverage, not center fibers
.
i like the vertical support rib a bit to left, but still as full length as possible
>>to give more leverage on snap off to right against that rib
Step further is to angle rib to about 12:30 rather than high noon
>>this 12:30 strategy works well with to left more to give snapoff to right more leverage strategy
>>lots of support column left @15 degrees support to your cos(support cause) ~97%
>>but @ same 15 degrees sin is 25% !!
So virtually same support column against gravity proper; and 1/4th the weight is helping make the sidewards snap off easier
>>schedule pull across thin axis properly/slight tilt
>>That sudden 25% is the impact of change from nowhere for side force for everything @15degrees off centrterline/just off of pure vertical, with very little support loss
>>this sudden, counter-intuitive change is what makes the side force so volatile, and car frame etc. alignments so critical
>>only here orchestrated to help, rather than cripple efforts
.
Tried Dutch close for bottom pivot contact on compression side for even less fiber to break across
>>tension fiber must remain connected at top, compression at bottom can self seat theory
Couldn't get the close hard to support as pivot for tension and still get support hold long enough to work the snap across
