best face for dead trees?

[SydTreeguy]

Just wanted to throw one out there for Gerald, I bought and watched your I, II & III working climber series of DVD's. After having worked in forestry and been a climber for a few years I didn't think there'd be a lot to learn, but boy was I wrong! Your pointers on falling are the most comprehensive thing I have ever seen, had to watch it a few times just to get my head around some of the finer points. Can't thank you enough for sharing your knowledge.

Got a question here relating specifically to dead and brittle trees, mostly those that are going to be pulled over due to backlean. I do mostly residential tree work, and there isn't access for heavy equipment so most of the time the pulling is slow - it's mostly by mechanical advantage stacked up, or sometimes with a friction drum. Either way, it takes some time.... especially if the backlean is significant.

I've had some ongoing discussions with another guy about the best combination of notches and back cuts to get the most flex out of a dead tree before it cracks, and we disagree but neither of us can prove a point. Assuming a dead and fairly brittle tree with some back lean and around 2-3' DBH, I tend to favor cutting pretty deep notch up to around 45% deep with a 'gap' of an inch or so, then a top cut of 45 degrees and a bottom cut of 45 degrees for a total of 90 to try to keep it on the stump as long as I can. I keep my back cut roughly centered to the gap.

My buddy favors a conventional notch no more than 30% deep, 45 degree slope and about 2" of stump throw. He feels that the stump throw adds a lot of flex to the notch and prevents it cracking early.

I guess there's no right or wrong answer, but I'd be interested in hearing feedback about things you do to improve the flex on a dead tree pull over, or dead tree that you need to keep on the stump longer in a normal fall.

Shaun

 

[SkwerI]

The block face on the notch can help since the hinge can bend over a wider area. With brittle wood you want to spread the bend out so it won't break as quickly. Your buddy's idea of the higher back cut also gives a wider area for the fibers to bend but the narrow face will separate the hinge sooner. I would use a combination of a wide notch with a higher back cut.

 

[stig]

I didn't want to answer, since I'm not Jerry B.
But since Brian has started, I'll chime in .


Use a block face preferably split out by axe, maul, whatever.

That gives you the maximum fiber bendability possible and splitting it out instead of cutting it, makes sure none of the fibers in the hinge are cut through.

And BTW, I have been logging professionally for over 30 years and still had some "WOW!" moments while watching Jerry's videos

 

[pete mctree]

I didn't want to answer, since I'm not Jerry B.
But since Brian has started, I'll chime in .


Use a block face preferably split out by axe, maul, whatever.

That gives you the maximum fiber bendability possible and splitting it out instead of cutting it, makes sure none of the fibers in the hinge are cut through.

I agree. Anything to help the dead brittle fibers flex will increase control & flexibility

 

[Burnham]

Yup. Including the german cut full width might be a good idea.

 

[squisher]

I'll throw in a wrench. On a dead stick like is being discussed, what would be the benefit or drawback to boring the hinge?

 

[Husabud]

Even better, what is the stick? Or did I miss that? I have to admit, I haven't seen Jer's vids yet but as I am told they are a gift for my B-day. Wouldn't the species play a big role in the outcome?

 

[squisher]

Around here some species decay faster than others, but mostly once dead you're gonna treat them the same. Vertical bore before even starting to cut it up to know what you're dealing with. Build a plan from there.

 

[Tucker943]

The species determines everything. I'd sooner say that all answers are null and void without the species being on the table. Dead birch and dead red oak are two different animals.

 

[squisher]

So what would you do differently if you had to pull one or the other over in a dead state?

To me, species is a small part in a much bigger production when dealing with dead trees.

 

[bonner1040]

Some trees are too dead to be a species. Especially the ones that 'had leaves last year'.

Then its just a dead tree.

 

[HolmenTree]

Dead DED American elm has one of the strongest if not strongest hingewood out there in North America..............

 

[Husabud]

Some trees are too dead to be a species. Especially the ones that 'had leaves last year'.

Then its just a dead tree.

Good point. But wood fiber is wood fiber, unless it is completely rotten, then this thread would have a different title.
I think a hard wood vs. soft wood vs fruit has a lot to do with it. A vertical bore will definitely tell you a lot about your future problems with any dead tree.

 

[squisher]

Elm in general is a fantastically strong wood so I'd expect nothing less even though we don't deal with DED here.

Around here relatively fresh bugkill pine will hinge better than live willow. Everone in their areas knows their particular common wood strengths. But around here anyways when a tree is long dead, they're pretty much all brittle.

I'm interested in the original discussion regarding dead trees and the strongest hinge possible. Irregardless of species. And whether or not any amount or type of boring would make a difference in potential hinge strength or suppleness.

 

[Tucker943]

Species is key my man. With a species like elm or oak that hinge great after mortality, I notch and whack em. Something that crumbles and fails on the hinge easily, I go out of my way more to open that face way up and step up my backcut higher.

 

[Al Smith]

Totally depends on what it is .Oak will hang in there so will ash .Dead hickory is likely to snap off on you .I have no idea on the PNW stuff .

 

[Burnham]

Many of y'all are missing the point. The question is, what sort of face and back cut provides the best chance of getting the hinge to function on dead wood fiber. The fact that you don't need to worry as much about maximizing that function on some species near as much as others in irrelevant to the basic question.

 

[pantheraba]

Class....pay attention!!

The thread title tells us what the original poster wants to know.

So do I.

 

[bonner1040]

Its all right here:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jVZkGYKcysA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Burnham]

, Nick.

Gary, go back and read posts 2 through 5. I think the basic answers are there.

I don't think boreing to gut the hinge will help to increase dead wood's hingeing ability...but there may be other opinions on that. I do think the vertical bore under the front of the hinge will help, even more so when combined with the gapped face.

 

[bonner1040]

I love that one, it falls 90 degrees the wrong way and he is like 'theres a good tip..'

 

[pantheraba]

Gary, go back and read posts 2 through 5. I think the basic answers are there.

I don't think boreing to gut the hinge will help to increase dead wood's hinging ability...but there may be other opinions on that. I do think the vertical bore under the front of the hinge will help, even more so when combined with the gapped face.

I got that part...just wanted to hear the consensuses / concensci (word?) from all our FINEs (f'ing internet experts).

Good info on vertical bore under front of hinge.

 

[Burnham]

Okie dokie, brother.

As if we ever ALL agree on much of anything .

 

[HolmenTree]

Got a question here relating specifically to dead and brittle trees, mostly those that are going to be pulled over due to backlean. there isn't access for heavy equipment so most of the time the pulling is slow - it's mostly by mechanical advantage.

Assuming a dead and fairly brittle tree with some back lean and around 2-3' DBH, I tend to favor cutting pretty deep notch up to around 45% deep with a 'gap' of an inch or so, then a top cut of 45 degrees and a bottom cut of 45 degrees for a total of 90 to try to keep it on the stump as long as I can. I keep my back cut roughly centered to the gap.

He feels that the stump throw adds a lot of flex to the notch and prevents it cracking early.

Shaun

Shaun,
I see you have some dead trees to fell, some with backlean? What species are they?

More importantly you have to look at the side lean too. The sidelean to lay ratio depending how great is your biggest factor to get that dead tree to the ground safely.

I think your 45-50% facecut depth is the way to go especially with a backlean . A stepped backcut can be dangerous in setting up your hinge thickness , many fallers [even pros] have over cut the hinge because not of compensating the fiber for the backlean and then miss judging hinge thickness.
I don't think a stepped or level backcut to facecut apex corner really matters in dead brittle fibre.
At least when the backcut is level you're guaranteed hinge thickness in a back leaner.

If you gonna use slow mechanical advantage to pull them over then a guy line 90 degree to lay would have to be enforced if the crown has even moderate side lean.

 

[stig]

I'll throw in a wrench. On a dead stick like is being discussed, what would be the benefit or drawback to boring the hinge?

I see no benefit from it, but on species where the sapwood goes rotten fast, you may actually remove the only part of the hinge that'll do you any good.

Burnham, I haven't thought of putting a German/ vertical cut in on a block/gap face.
Obviously it'll give you more bendability, so that is one I'll try out.
It is such an easy thing to do, doesn't take any time at all, so it should be well worth it.
On totally straight grain, that is.