MA Problem with Maasdam and 5/8" Bull Rope

rfwoody

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How can I get 3000 lbs of pull from a 1000 WWL 3 strand rope?

3:1 MA system, right?

I can't get my head around how to set up the pulleys in order to transfer 1000 lbs from my Maasdam w/ friction hitch (ala Patrick) to 3000 lbs to a 5/8" bull pull rope attached to the victim tree:

treehouse_maasdam_ma_problem_20181203_130322_resized.jpg

Thanks for your help!
 
Don't forget about the search function of the forum, though I tend to find such search functions nowhere near as good as Google, which there's a way to search this site only via google with the ability to search pictures only if you want, but you might find what you are looking for already posted several times over with pictures and everything.
 
Search/Google 'Z Rig'...

Attach Z Rig to victim and anchor trees, attach Maasdam to tail of final leg of rope...pull.
 
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  • #5
.... yeah, sometimes I think I can save time by just asking the question fresh instead of looking it up -- lazy -- ... but also I can get my own clarification...

Does this look like the correct configuration for a 3-1 Z-rig setup?

z-rig_3-1_MA_20181203_162616_resized.jpg
Thanks to Patrick (TreeMuggs) -- where I adapted this picture from his website.

Are there any potential problems one should be aware of for a setup like this?

NOTE: maybe this because I'm such a noob...
...but this seems to be an ingenious way to safely use the power of the Maasdam to safely apply 3000 lbs. of force
(am I wrong?)


thanks!
 
That's it, and it should be perfectly safe. All the weight is spread out between the legs of the pulleys, it's not 3000lbs on the masdaam.
Know your limits, but don't get too preoccupied with rope strength. If it's a rope made for arborists, you're not going to break it without a heavy shock load or a truck/ skid steer. The maasdam will slip if overloaded, it won't break the rope.
 
Yes that's it, if you add a prussik on the rope on the anchor tree then if you run out of pull rope you can stop and reset your pull without drama. The anchor tree prussik will hold everything until you reset and start pulling again.
 
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  • #11
Yes that's it, if you add a prussik on the rope on the anchor tree then if you run out of pull rope you can stop and reset your pull without drama. The anchor tree prussik will hold everything until you reset and start pulling again.

Thanks a lot, Bermy!

I would just double the rope back and anchor it. Only.one pulley for the rope in the tree.

Peter.... Question please.... would you have time to make a picture of what you are talking about....
...would it still be using the Maasdam to pull the 5/8" bull rope and getting a 3:1 MA? Thanks!!

It's late and I'm tired but that doesn't look right to me.

Thanks for looking, Mellow...... would appreciate more feedback if you get a chance. Thanks!

ha, maybe I should have tried to consolidate these last 3 responses, MB?
 
Kiss. Put an 3:1 MA on 1/2" stable braid, put 1/2" stable braid through the rope puller. If this is not enough pull, you shouldn't be pulling it.

One rated puller on the anchor tree, one rated pulley hitched mid-span, and back to the puller.

I can't image you really needing more pull, at this point, unless you want to use the "pull hard" compared to the "cut right, pull right" system.

Practice your throwing skills. Start with 20', and get consistent, then 25'-30' until consistent, then, 30-40', until con....
 
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  • #13
Thanks a lot Sean for your consistent perspective and help.

Yeah KISS -- always.... of course one man's simple is sometimes another man's complex.....

.... BUT .... isn't the Maasdam designed for 1/2" 3 strand rope? ..... will 1/2" stable braid work?

Thanks!
 
Designed for 3-strand. Grabs 1/2" stable braid fine imo.

Also be aware that when doing hard pulling on the maasdam CRP handle that you need to make sure the Pawls are engaging well, so that they don't start to be damaged. Over enough time there will be wear, especially with employees.


If there is a concern about slippage, you can "spike" the line. Put an overhand-knot- on-a-bight on the standing side of the MCRP, periodically, if you have a pawl failure, the knot will butt into the MCRP.


I haven't had a failure.
Like I tell my kid, we practiced stop drop and roll if you get caught on fire when I was a kid, and then I asked how many times does she think I've actually been on fire. Zero. Doesn't mean you don't prepare, and be mindful. Same advice here for adults, stop, drop, and roll. Lol





I write CRP because Maasdam is just the brand name, and they make cable come-alongs as well.
 
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  • #15
Thanks Sean.

I guess I need to just try the maasdam with the 1/2" stable braid rope so I can see...

.... but having used the "modular" 25' rope maasdam w/ rope grab technique a few times..... I have to say I really like it.

Is there any inherent danger in this method?

what does CRP stand for? .... I googled but nothing conclusive.... Capacity Rope Puller (?)

Thanks!
 
Continuous Rope Puller

By rope grab, you mean using the prusik, right? Not a mechanical rope grab.
Nothing dangerous about it, it's a handy option to have available.
 
It's called a continuous rope puller, which means it will pull as much rope as you have without resetting.

I like KISS.


P.S. three-stand is high elasticity/ stretch.

You mentioned that pecan pull-rope being very tight, in your estimation.


What I like about a manual winch is you're better able to gauge the effort, at times.
 
This is why I use a 50 foot line with the Massdam continuous puller. I'll set some stable braid in the tree as the pull line. Less stretch. Some of our pulls can hit 300 feet and more. More often 200. If you use 3 strand for those lengths, that is a lot of stretch to compensate for. Just use a Prussic to capture the bull line to the pull line going through the Massdam. Another advantage to doing your pulling this way is being able to capture the tail of your bull line pulling the tree into a porty or Prussic if you need to hold the tree if using a guy line, or if you have to reset your pull. In other words, need to pull further and ran out of line through the puller. This method also allows you to add more MA if needed.
I also don't like having to deal with a ton of line moving through the puller. Smaller hank stores better. Resets faster
 
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  • #22
Thanks Jonny (I apologize, sir, I see I've been misspelling your name)
--- yes, a prussik (or other type of hitch) .... not mechanical)


Thanks Sean --- yeah the (stretch/tension) + (lack of experience) was what freaked me out on the pecan pull.

.......... I guess if one really wanted to measure the force on a rope they would have to buy one of those expensive Arborist force meters they use in the Arborpod videos.............. it would be very interesting (to me) but too expensive to justify.


Thanks a lot CurSedVoyce ----- those things are just what is appealing to me about that method!

Thanks Marc
 
I have used the Maasdam many times, and will use it again, no doubt, but I find it painfully slow, especially when gearing it down to a 3:1. I use the truck/Gehl/Boxer 90% of the time, simply for the speed of pull.
 
Stretch is bad with a heavy leaner. You want more control, without fighting the stretch out, to start to actually pull.

With the stretch, especially with a long run of rope, you've stored pulling-energy in the tensioned, elastic rope.


If you pretensioned the rope, it will start to stretch and relax, as you cut your facecut.

Re-tension your rope when you're ready for the back cut, and you've removed the support of the facecut, from the column of wood.

As you back-cut, the elasticity of the rope keeps pulling. This can help pull over the tree while cutting, without additional tensioning.





You may put that in the bag of tricks, but don't think that's the only way.

A super static cable or rope will not lose distance (set back) as loaded, the tension will go up. (All things stretch a bit).

When you're tensioning a pull rope, you bend the tree to a degree, storing energy.

Often, one person will tension, while the other is judging tree-movement and tension.

Redirecting the rope back to the stump, anchored behind the stump, can allow you to do it all.
I've never done this, but it theoretically helps the one-man band.



Oh, if you have a super static pull, and you're wedging, too, you lose line tension quickly.


Also, you can hang a log, midspan on the pull line, then, tension your rope, this log will continue to keep tension on the line, as the tree comes over.
Beware of your load.
I've done this topping a back-leaning 4.5' Doug-fir with my loader and a sizeable log, and 1/2" low-stretch Stable Braid (10k breaking strength). The sizes you're dealing with are less.

I don't always take wedges and a hatchet for topping, but Absolutely, in this case.


If you stack wood on a bathroom scale, or have dumbbells, weight plates for bar bells, etc, you can learn your weights. You can probably find some logs around to weigh, somewhere.

Put a pulley in a tree, tie on weight, crank your puller. Pull with truck.




Bring in-line with a tensioned rope can be dangerous. Putting anything (blankets, ropes, chaps, jackets, etc) on the tensioned line is meant to reduce recoil if the loaded rope breaks.





Again, KISS. KISS. KISS.
Use what you need.
Buying a $1000 force-meter compared to the wood you have, and the $30 bathroom scale you can buy, or have.
Try to distill things down.


I use one rope and one Maasdam CRP as pull-rope, and anchor rope Most of the time. I could start bringing out more hear to use, carry bag to the truck, mentally-inventory back in helping to reduce logs, and actually put it away.

Hard to lose the rope puller, hooked to the rope bag. If I lose the rope puller, they're only about $50 on Amazon. The less gear you have out, the less likely you're going to forget something, necessitating a return trip after phone calls to track it down, or repurchasing.



I have a good bit of gear for special circumstances, but stick to basics when I can.

One throw line in a backpack rope bag, one M-crp, one rope, one saw, one ax and a bunch of wedges can tackle a slew of trees, with cutting skills.

Getting three ropes into a tree that an experienced Faller could wedge-over, ...KISS.
The above listed gear will get you through most trees you're cutting.
 
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