Staggered Backcut

murphy4trees

TreeHouser
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
4,102
Location
Philadelphia PA suburbs
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9MLYxZPaFDo" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

There is very little explanation of the thinking behind this cut in the video, so please take the time to read this description if you have an interest in expanding your bag of tricks in tree falling.
Staggered Backcut refers to splitting the back cut into two different cuts at two different heights to fight a heavy side lean. The backcut on the side of the lean is cut at level or slightly above level with the face cut, per standard practices. The backcut on the side away from the lean is cut BELOW the height of the face cut. This gives the hinge fibers on the "low cut" side MUCH more holding ability. The differential in height can be adjusted according to the species and amount of side lean.
This Norway maple had very heavy side lean and a good bit of front lean. The drop zone was fairly tight between the pool and the shrubbery beds along the fence line. The tree could make the lay if the huge side lean could be overcome. Norway maple is a poor hinging species, so any type of standard hinge, tapered or otherwise would not be trusted. Other options included setting up a retainer line as shown in this video: https://youtu.be/4HRVsoM9bxc , but that would have required a good bit of time to set up.
And I wanted to see if how well the staggered back cut could hold a poor hinging wood like Norway maple, in a relatively low risk scenario (only the shrubs, the fence, and my pride and reputation were at risk) . The hinge held well enough that there was NO DAMAGE to the shrubs with almost no room to spare. SO this was a successful experiment. And since this is only the second time I have tries this cut, more experimentation is needed to fully understand its limitations.
The first time I tried the staggered back cut was in 2010 by making a similar cut on a large front leaning locust in this video. https://youtu.be/XI57_nTRkd0?t=96
The locust in this cited video had a huge front lean and yet was pulled significantly left by hinge fibers on the left side of the hinge which held against the front lean because the back cut on the left side of the hinge. I was surprised at the time to see how far to the left and how slowly the tree went due to the staggered backcut. A close study of the video showed without a doubt that the fibers on the left side of the hinge from the low back cut held powerfully enough to slow and turn the tree.

In the case of the Norway maple, I was just trying to get it to the lay without losing it to the side weight and NOT trying to "turn" the tree.
 
Interesting!

I deal with those in a different way.


I make the back cut on the pressure ( Lean) side level with the face cut, so the fibers in the hinge can't compress by being bent sideways.
On the pull ( opposite lean) side I put in a whizzy and go fairly high with my back cut. ( Recently I've started using the triple hinge for that sort of situation).

Basically, we achieve the exact same result by utilizing two different methods.

Personally, I think you'd be better off using that fairly new critter, the triple hinge, for a tree like that.
 
So not including the triple hinge technique, you and daniel cut the tension side totally opposite of one another.
 
No, Daniel cuts the tension side way above the face cut as do I.
I put in a whizzy to aid the fibers in the hinge in bending.
Daniel doesn't do that, he adds that little low release cut, where I think he'd be better served by the triple hinge.
 
Cool!
Would you say there's a pretty big risk of the tree snatching the saw when it goes over?
 
Seems to me that all the tension-wood bending is going to concentrate at the horizontal-cut of the face-cut, IF cut low.

The Wizzy, German cut, full gap-face, and triple-hinge all allow flexing over more length, with the tension fibers flexing over a more distributed length.


IDK.

Never tried a low back-cut.



A low back-cut may be useful for getting more root flare as tension wood, possibly.
 
To me it looks like he didn't leave fibers holding, but encouraged them to pull out really deep fibers really early. Looks like exact opposite of what should be done, but maybe I'm missing something.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10
I would like to try the triple hinge or maybe back it off to a double hinge, and will probably put in a double kerf between the hinges when I do, but I honestly haven't had much of a chance to do so lately... I've been waiting since 2010 for the right tree to try the staggered back cut on, and never really got a grasp of the Wizzy though I remember the thread here went into a good bit of detail, explanation and illustration... If we had enough times to experiment we might be able to say what works better, how the cuts should be adjusted based on tree species, size, lean etc. or maybe find that certain cuts work better in certain scenarios... I don't think I'll ever have enough chance to experiment with it enough to come to reliable conclusions... maybe with all the ash trees dying I'll get a chance to experiment...

I will say that the locust tree here was a monster, big and heavy leaning close to 45 degrees.. https://youtu.be/XI57_nTRkd0?t=96 . I would not have expected any cut to slow it down or turn it, once it started moving. So that reflects well on the staggered back cut, but with locust being such a strong hinging wood, perhaps the triple hinge could have been just as effective...

WE MAY NEVER KNOW FOR SURE!

But if those that drop trees all day every day (Stig) experiment with it, and are generous enough to share their findings, we may glean some new understandings... Looking forward to it!
 
Hmmm... I suppose predictability and repeatability across various species would be the true test of the technique. No Robinia pseudoacacia around these parts, so I couldn't test it as you did in 2010. Norway maples are also a rarity, too. Sweet gum hinges well and is a plentiful target around here, but I've not encountered one with a serious lean anytime in recent memory. I do have a mimosa that has a 45 degree lean on the main trunk and will need to come out soon, but the diameter is so small I'd have to try either the power pruner head or just a hand saw.

What does that response mean?
MB, I do those responses sometimes -- a quote or an embedded video with just a period (.) as the entirely of the post. The forum requires a minimum of one character for a post.
 
What does that response mean?

His post was of the quote with BELOW in all caps to point out the cut was unusually low instead of normally above the hinge.


I've had a couple enjoyable felling experiences, one with a Norwegian Spruce, and one with white pine where the poles would ever so slowly make their way to the ground as I made the back cut. They would even stop at more than 40-60 degrees waiting for me to finish the back cut. Strong hinge wood there.
 
I had to put something in to make it quote so I did that.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #18
Stig said DM's tension-side cut is above the level of the face cut, I quoted that to show DM says it is below the level of the face cut

the video is a little deceptive...
the back of the hinge was preset by the low undercut, which appears as a kerf from the camera's view. I thought the tree was going to have enough front lean to trip the fall when I made that (low backcut on the tension side) but it didn't move, and I didn't want to thin that side of the hinge out any more, so needed to take more off the higher back cut to get it to trip. Looks like I was plunging a bit to thin out the center of the hinge from the higher (compression side) back cut, which was all she needed to move... There was no bypass from the higher cut being made in the video and the low back cut (seen as a kerf cut), so the lower plunged back cut on the tension side defined the back of the hinge on the tension side... (guessing Stig meant that, but just mis-wrote it)

don't feel bad if you're a little confused. I actually had to watch it in slow motion a few times to figure out what happened, and I was there the first time...
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #20
Here's the client's facebook post..

She said everyone else that bid the tree was going to use a crane... wide open yard on one side, but it seems like more and more arbs around here are going with cranes as SOP.

TWO HUGE TREES DOWN

Today we said goodbye to two large trees on our property. One was split down the middle and clearly NOT going to make it through another winter without taking out our new fence. The other lost its top last winter.

In my zip code, tree removal quotes ALWAYS involve HUGE numbers and CRANES.

Thank GOD for DAN MURPHY who, after saying a prayer to the tree, ARTFULLY AND PRECISELY FELLS IT ALONE WITH JUST HIS FREAKIN CHAINSAW and his eyeballs. 3 cool dudes then help him clean up.

Got big trees that need to come down but don’t want to tear up your yard? Call Dan.
 
I'm not sure what effect this staggering is purported to do. How does it affect the wood fibers?


Looked like a good way to lose a saw.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #24
This video doesn't demonstrate the concept well, and as a mater of fact is very misleading.. I don't usually post videos of a new technique until I;ve tried it many times and on many species and have a complete understanding of it's application, and limitations and have all the do's and don't dialed in. I was feeling somewhat inspired by stig's thread or I wouldn't have even bothered posting this technique publicly. Saw snatch is definable NOT a concern.. But as posted before this was only the SECOND TIME I tried this technique and don't expect to use it enough to completely understand it... At this point I'd just be guessing as to how to best make this cut...

The triple hinge seems like a great technique to solve side-lean, probably more reliable and easier to understand, and perhaps better performing.... However that doesn't mean the staggered back cut doesn't have a place in the tool box.... But someone else will have to do the field work to figure that out... I hope it does and hope that this thread was the beginning of a new technique...

If a good scenario comes up again, I will try to get a better video and explanation published...
 
Back
Top