Rope

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  • #51
Still/ same topic:Working smarter not harder thru science/1st class lever usage.
"This one principle has so many different forms,that can be as elusive to see."
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And so started with our own climber self lift; this is all extension of that same principle ;
"These usages fool the eye/ can be counter-intuitive..."
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saveForces_5.png

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You can't cheat Mother Nature at Her own game;
but you can surrrrrrre join Her in said game / already in progress!!​
 
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  • #52
This simple device, to make soooo many machines, then fold away to nothing, we just simply call it ROPE!
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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #53
i'm re-posting these after sum re-work; i've always thought key points easily missed in both simple genius work flows.
With more control over size, speed, position, the Animated.Gif's allow you to catch ALL the author's work, and check it out.
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Spencer Speedline Multi-purpose sling usage;
easy to miss is one great strategy of using sling arraignment to force last piece over slowly, hitting line softer, can also draw a limb around sideways, then speedline; then carry from softer bend of 2 points with this heaviest piece, rather than 1.
Spencer Speedline Animated.Gif
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Next one is not really related to tree work at all:
except for bustin'butt , risking life, with simplest tools against gargantuan odds in hot sun with brain as best tool part.....
(ignoring that, no relevance to tree werk; at least they didn't cut down their own shade):
mytreelessons.com/pyramid_theory.swf
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originals:
Pyramid Build Theory , The Spencer Speedline
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Actually this is playing around/working on controlling a loaded object's frameRate and timeLine position;
to then fold in that level functionality (when needed) to main interface(already has adjustable zoom):
mytreelessons.com/rope-n-saw.swf,
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i found many olde things archived sorting for rope-n-saw, and pic below from here when this place was still in it's infancy.
Did we ever get any confirmation that there is a boat in the background(w/o photo retouch etc.)?

opticalillusion.jpg
 
Speedline sequence is very good. I have a tree I SL'd several limbs from...need to do about 8 more (big gum at my house). I think I can do some presets like you show to make the rest of the tree more efficient. Thanks for the ideas.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #56
i was trying to explain this again last weekend, and i once again heard how it didn't make sense, was junk science etc.
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i've been using this strategy in different forms since teenager, thought it was all separate tricks.
But distilled out the common elements; and found link between stiff and rolling levers to use as same.
This allowed me to carry this powerful strategy to more things; and understand others.
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Simply, you can reverse forces usually pressing down into ground, to pull up on load.
This is counter-intutitve and can fool eye.
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Simpler to see, just with bodyWeight as ballast to float load, usually bodyWeight expresses downward on ground, not up on load
will_lift_1.png

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If you lift something, it is added to your bodyWeight show above; so now both push into ground
1st class lever reverses these downward forces and makes them pull up with the original effort pull up on load.
Shown is input arm effort or input leg effort for more return

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will_lift_2.png

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This can be done with a stiff(board) or flexible(rope) 1st class lever system.
Like an electrical circuit, re-wire force flow to pull up on load, not 'short out' to ground!
Like a 220v fuse box, don't use 110v, when really need both legs of force produced; give it the full 220v!

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will_lift_3.png
 
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  • #58
Thread really about rope as a tool;
but then really, really about out-thinking work to minimal effort for max output, rope just an example application.
Especially when showing powers of 1st class lever to conserve 'wasted' forces (asserted on ground)
and assert same forces on target load instead. Like not running part of voltage to ground!
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Application of 1st class lever effort + E/O of effort + bodyWeight instead of just effort!
Then impact forces as can.
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will_trailer_spar.png


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As a has been gymnast; i've exercised orchestrating different force flows,
concentrations thru body frame, this takes some of that, but hi payoff!
i remember ol'coach yelling, that pointing toes and tight body made action easier (longer, more tighter leverage),
but we always thought it maid it harder; cuz had to think and apportion forces thru body frame.
But once you got it, you see what's up/ was a fool to do any other way!!!
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It has been same for eldest boy; in/out of Akido (hence Will of the Ninja) for years:
be strong, but focus on orchestration,timing and application of mechanics not shear strength.
He is also back in school working on masters in engineering( following in steps of his grandfather and Natural father/died of MS)
and so has been a double check, taken things to professors etc. over the many years of much of the 'crazy math' i post on.
BUT we never found any of this body mechanic, 1st class lever E/O + bodyWeight stuff in engineering books,
as everything taught is architecture outside of body;
but still, the motions are correct; just not written about!
Same for martial arts manuals, not written about;
but if you break down some of the moves; do seem to follow the same prescription!!
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Above see 3 moments of forces to orchestrate together (tough loads)
or sequentially (lighter so 1 or 2 forces to get moving, then add more after to maintain motion)
Force: Slamming spar on trailer
Force: bodyWeight on spar
Force: effort lift (at same moment E/O of lift expressed
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Not Shown : leverage 2 axis-es at once't >>
Can also slam down on trailer leveraging long axis of spar;
then as going on allow to slop some so starts loading across trailer width some
and then can spin short axis of spar to leverage that axis too and help walk Cog onto trailer.
Center of Gravity(CoG) forcePoint goes on trailer; carries shape of spar with it!
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More to trailer loading, and orchestration of body forces to most correct:
will_trailer_stump.png

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Back to rope, compounding systems that conserve forces:
an old ship manual with a 3/1 not on end of 5/1 so that 1 end of 3/1 pulls on ground/outside of system
but rather, purposefully chooses to pull BOTH ends of 3/1 from inside the 5/1 pulls
Also note both ends of 3/1 adjustable; high:friction hitch. low:easily adjustable simple hitch
mytreelessons.com/Marlinspike_%20Sailor_Rig.htm
 
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  • #60
In designing above hitch, i carefully maintained the pure inline mechanic.
In fact started it as an example of the properties applied.
(seeking short friction hitch, with 'clean profile' like Bitter End coming out top/along Standing Part, not exiting at right angle
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Below are 3 pics of probably smarter, richer folks that have been able to give more to these arts than i.
BUT, i think the projected angle of pull on loading (guess that doesn't deserve an acronym)
would be mechanically incorrect; excuse me perhaps should say not as mechanically purely correct..
These work...mostly, but might not on a bad day; they simply, don't seat as well mechanically.
ALSO, as a compounding fault, 1st 2 pics shown rope DOES NOT choke around 360 degrees,
>>some of rope is pulling open; this is even more so exaggerated with wrong angle of pull(shown in 2nd pic).
>>Preceding Half Hitch would give more than 360 degrees grip and be at correct loading angle
>>3rd pic /Round Turn does go the full 360+ choke, but pulls at wrong angle when loaded.

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When this Running Bowline is loaded, it won't seat into the log inline, it will pull at leveraged angle;
-part of Bowline where standing meets eye will pull way from, not into the log!
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leveraged_bowline.png

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This does show this pull would come from below convex imperfection for better lock on log.
-IMHO best is Half Hitch or Marl to correct angle of pull on Bowline, have more than 360 degrees choke and always use such imperfections when can!
(sometimes even cutting small humboldt opposite Standing Part pull, and then bed line into notch)
Also , see the pull open on Running Bowline by Standing part would be maximum where the helping imperfection/swell is
>>so partially rope can start to ramp over swell when closes; would lock into swell most positively if swell on bottom 180 from Standing Part pull
>>where line seats tightest into log(thus where i putt humbold)!
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Timber Hitch pulled inline to spar, same errant angle of pull on otherwise positive mechanic.
See and FEEL where Standing Part comes into Eye part of rope is pulling way from/not into spar
leveraged_timber_hitch.png

Some logs dragged like this can bounce around like a wildcat refusing to be dragged to cage;
-But slip the preceding Half Hitch over nose and same wildcat now pulls tamely!
-w/o Half Hitch, mechanics (hitchpoint and log center of gravity )fight each other, causing log to not pull 'tamely'
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Clean and simple Round Turn + 2 Half Hitches (1 as stopper, 1 as keeper of stopper);
Resolves some issues, for now the whole circumference of the log has rope tension(previously not seen in 2 above examples).
BUT, still should train eye to not like; as line would load along spar, not at right angle to (unless at balance point)
Proper angle of pull will be across spar as shown, so rope stays inline to itself, for rope only supports on inline/not cross axis.
(when log cut/hangs it will be inline with rope, and hitch leveraged against self angled across host spar like above pic of Timber Hitch.
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leveraged_round_turn.png

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Friction Hitches Arbos climb on;
are inline pulls on a column of rope, so all have a preceding half and or 'sock'/ rat tail set of braids down column of line
http://www.mytreelessons.com/ks/basic_Halfs.swf
 
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  • #61
EMERGENCY BUDDY RESCUE PUZZLE
i was 135# dripping wet,
rescued 360#man (that thought he should climb despite his epilepsy)
i had 1 pulley ran up tree with...
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will_buddy_rescue.png

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i remember that big bear's furry arm darting out trying to grab me like a drowning man; as i went straight to him,
i said oh no, went overhead to lift out rather than calm within reach of scared bear!
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Years later he asked me what i would have done if didn't have enough lift;
explained would have let him grab lift rope also,
as he couldn't pull down 100# on control side, w/o taking 100# off load side..
(as it was, i used leg lift as effort input, rather than arm effort as input)
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Used to think this principle was 10 different tricks;
traced down to root(finally) of equal and opposite thru 1st class lever, reflected back onto work target;
then expanding back out from that distilled pivot found more uses.



edit: ol'Joe is gone now, disease whittled him weigh down...
When he was 18, somebody figured to try biggest guy in bar.
Joe did 7yrs for manslaughter, because underage drinking in bar..
hit the guy once; bar 3 blocks from my house...
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There was no way i was going to let that big monster of a man grab me...
Burnt into my brain is pic of that big bear paw coming at me..
 
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  • #62
To me all this is rope mechanics, with most correct mechanics available.
Down to the simplest things and why is this more correct than that etc.
'Left-Hand' Sheet Bends and Bowlines are said to be not as secure, i think this is why.
Quite simply, these leave a 'free ranging' Bitter End, that is not seized properly
>>not sandwiched between strongest rope tensions/surfaces by Rope Nip.
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sheet_nip_1.png

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sheet_nip_2.png


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Though i think there could be more info on some points;
i've always thought this would be a great scouting start to discussion of knots young or old.
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archive.org/details/gov.dod.dimoc.29576
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It is of crackly old style, clean, black and white military background presentation;
seems to set the feel and stage for olde worlde tools, arts and practices of necessity;
that should lend well to scouting.
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http://troop1011org.ipage.com/uploads/3/4/3/9/34390795/t1011_knot_master_program_2013-04-29.pdf
 
I always wondered about the alledged differences in those 2 bowlines. Good presentation though I'm still not convinced. Maybe Nick can use his breaking machine and report back which bowline/sheet bend holds best?!?
 
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  • #64
COOL!
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Though both failures, let's keep SLIP and SHEAR in different piles.
Slip, on something that doesn't nip properly;
would partially test by jerks/different angles of pull to fail/slip/knot walks of job.
More of a real working, intermittent loading, angles of pull during lowering, working etc.
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Especially in Bowline, note:
Standing Part is single most loaded line;
Equal and Opposite in pulls is the eye with half load each side, not as tight surfaces.
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So Standing is also the HARDEST SURFACE to Nip against.
As it comes into making the Turn, Standing Part bends to one side,
So favors that same side/ internal , not external tail/Bitter End;
to Nip hardest against this hardest surface (tightened Standing Part ).
External tail, simply does not line up in the sandwich to squish into this rock hard Standing Part to Nip;
is more free-ranging outside of this domain/sandwich of pressure.
(as i sees it; it don't seize it! ).
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Of curse, i have no backing on this, just my theories...
 
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  • #65
In my imagery i think there are 3 force parts in Bowline to watch for, to see Left Hand doesn't Nip as well.
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i see these things as electrical schematics;
and blurring it more see, whether positive/negative, north/south, male/female etc.
Yin/Yang the Equal/Opposites seek each other;
in Left Hand Bowline, the Bitter End is not in the force path between the Equal/Opposites;
so doesn't incur their direct forces, only residual/side forces.
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The S_Part is key in tension and thus hardness;
to trap into it, Bitter End needs to turn towards, not away from S_Part.
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Even in Sheet Bend, theory carries; even though 2 Bitter Ends now.
The Cross Over Loop/Hitch is the lock, the Bight is trying to escape.
The lock side Bitter End can't help but be in force path;
It must end up on top of it's own S_Part, that bight S_Part seeks (so gets Nipped between).
Bight side Bitter End lays next to it's own S_Part, not crossed over it;
whether Bight side Bitter End gets good Nip depends:
on if it lines up to the side of it's S_Part that sandwiches it properly
between the 2 Equal/Opposite forces seeking each other (or not).
So, Bight Bitter End must again end up towards, not away from lock/hitch side S_Part for best Nip.
bowline_3parts.png
 
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  • #67
i do think that it is important to not only see the visual similarities;
but, yes the force pattern conducted thru the architecture as different loading patterns.
But, i believe Bowline/Sheet Bend share the same locking mechanism, just loaded differently.
Also, each has a lock/Hitch side and an escape/Bight side.
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The vid shows a Sheet Bend tied to itself to form eye, and gives/dis-regards that definition.
But, the lacing he shows capsizing/inverting from this pattern is an Jacked/Alaskan/Cowboy whatever Bowline;
that is maid to be pulled across the eye, not done it's length; it is not a regular Bowline.
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He makes only a Bight/release side in Standing Part and w/Bitter End laces the hitch/lock thru;
that is backwards from making the hitch/lock side in the Standing Part, and lacing Bight/release side thru from working end.
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So, the pull on Standing Part in his example is a pull on the Bight/release, not Hitch/lock side.
Pulling across the eye, and leaving what is normally the Standing Part hang free like it is Bitter End;
will invoke the Hitch/lock , where on a normal Bowline, that same scenario could invert/capsize the lacing.
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Guess i always favored the bright colors!:
Jacked%20versus%20Straight%20Bowline.JPG

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older 90's link Bowline vs. Sheet Bend Loading Patterns
 
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  • #68
Stuck in lab mode(drawing w/o coming up for air nor light)
trying to get intro for picture set right.
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name_calling.png
 
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  • #71
ummmm because we are on a tree climbing site, i guess that is like a good thang!
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rope_leverage_powers.png
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #72
Again try to highlight theory that rope/web/cable/chain etc. only support inline;
and constructions that give this, as this is so over-looked /yet all around i think.:
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inline_loading.png

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Working wider format, to go along with latest archive/showcase leveraging this free toolset: fancybox.net/
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  • #74
Not sure if writing book or what;
but all this has long been on bucket list..
am re-re-re-re-doing a showcase page of pix and animations going back 20+ yrs. starting out on BBS's on dial'em up and wait plan.
(walmart 25hrs. free monthly/ad infested internet of the 90's)
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tensionless_hitch_model.png
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Note how neatly 30,60,90 degree line spreads use 50/60/70% as load multiplier (respectively) to find line tension.
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some explanation /old man story hour i guess:
i was working around on contract climbs, bumping into some of the same local climbers on bigger and neighboring jobs.
i always took some ribbing on owning more than 1 rope, never white/no 2 matched, slings, krabs, pulleys, T shaped portAwrap etc.;
The rest of crew were basic 1 rope charlie's : single whore out piece or 1/2" arborplex(at best) used for climbing, rigging, dragging, trailer tiedowns, engine hoist, left loaded over night in the rain etc. as needed(i guess that way they knew it was on the truck?)
i kinda started out untrained, working on a drinking crew whom had a bad tree climbing problem!
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Seems i accidentally used math and rigging in the same sentence while in a mixed company on a fat payday party after ~3weeks of working together;
>>and then was challenged did i really climb with a protractor along with all the other bells and whistles...
After sum explanation and more rather spirited conversation; the mother vulcan same (roughly equivalent loading % of load)zone was born...
 
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