Advice for small scale logging operation-- Laminated Root Disease Doug-fir

SouthSoundTree-

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The site is at D's preschool. This is a non-profit cooperative preschool that's 42 years old. Way back then, was waaay out in the country. With modern road improvements, 15 minutes to town. There is one paid teacher, and the rest of the work is done by parents, in the class room, and outside on the grounds, fundraising, parent-education requirements as part of the community college system, etc, etc. Currently, ~25 families, kids aged 18 months to 5 years old.

Back story: The school was struck by lightning last year, 1.5 hours after school let out. The drywall was blown off the walls. At first it was thought that copper thieves broke in and were starting to gut the walls. The copper wiring was vaporized, basically. It would have been most certainly physically dangerous to the kids, and I'd say most certainly traumatic, had it happened during class. A tree on the school would be similar. A tree through the school...



There is a root disease pocket (Phellinus weirii/ Phellinus sulphurescens http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/nr/wildlife/decaid/IandDSpecies/Laminated root rot.html)
affecting a predominantly doug-fir stand (average 26" x 100'+) with two buildings as stationary targets, one being the preschool (occupied about 40% of the time, and the other is a work hop of the adjacent homeowner, Greg. Greg's doug-fir's are tall enough, and upwind of the preschool/ parking lot/ sole access-easement road.

I believe the rest of the Doug-fir that threaten the preschool building, parking lot, nature trail, and playground are preschool property.

This is a windy area, no joke. I think that its from funneling between the Olympic Mountains, and Capital Forest/ Capital peak.

I've knocked down at least two tall firs myself, and know that a number of the adjacent stumps were from trees I'd lost the bid on (all pre-Dahlia being enrolled). There is one small standing dead (low risk) and a number exhibiting classic Laminated Root Rot symptoms, at present. We haven't sampled root tissue for confirmation, but it is what it is. Amy deals with this all the time, on the site analysis part. We tried to go together last week, but too windy.

One approach is to keep knocking down the worst of the trees over time (more proactively than in the past), leave them in a heap, and cut out the trails. Enough windthrown root wads in the area makes me think that is a bit of ostrich in the sand about it.

At the other end is a small logging show. Either with the help of a commercial logger, or by me. Or both.



Might be too small to get a logger to do it with a skidder. I was wondering about renting a machine, like an excavator to move logs to the self-loader in the parking lot. Some might be export quality, but that means 41' logs, which suggests to me that it will require moonscaping the place, which is not desirable. There is a healthy forest understory to bounce back in its place. A logging job would probably happen in June, after school is out for the summer. Ground will be drier. Its a pretty flat site with good openings, due to windfall, in part.


Thoughts on dealing with the disease?
Thoughts on a machine for moving logs?
Thoughts on all the brush? I could move my chipper out to the branches with the mini (I think) and chip, but seems like a lot of hard work. I can hire in a tractor with a bigger grapple, a 30 yard end dump at $350 per load, use my mini with grapple to forward, etc.
Thoughts on understory rebound over the summer before the kids return (again, emotional impact if it looks like a moonscape at their beloved preschool.

Pics to come.https://www.google.com/maps/place/6...2!3m1!1s0x54919ef611a28ad7:0x1e68b3e72cf1b131
The school is set back off the road past the house just north of 41st av, 600' back off 41st (I just saw that on Google maps, you can right click and use a measuring tool).
 
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Not small Doug fir surround the school
2e0e7727d9abb672270ef177770b5052.jpg



Pini infected tree's stump visible. To left. This is the predominantly upwind area with most of the concerning trees to the s/Se.
85efe3c6448f1d6cb03adb14232a4495.jpg



Two parents shorting up a pea gravel- retaining wall with alder logs, for the short term. I've been pushing for significant play ground equipment updates, so if the alder logs, which replace rotten RxR ties, lasts a year or 4, for free. Fine.

We are looking to revamp with a "nature play" theme. Last alder down (near yesterday's alder) made into a sand box. Cedar rounds for table and chairs. Rounds in a circle for outside circle time.
3b18bd8cb0463a5d3f9b9d51cb16732b.jpg
 
If you pitch it to whoever is in charge of that school the way you did here, just let them decide. If you decide on logging them how many loads/bd footage are you looking at? Probably the toughest thing is to find a logger who isn't going to slash and dash...basically tear up the place, just to hurry and get the logs out. Best would probably be some old logger, who has semi-retired, and has nothing to prove, and not a lot of bills over his head. Coming from a logging background, I hate seeing nice saw logs get cut up for firewood, but it is tough to log a small, urban area. I think a grapple truck might be in my future, and would be the ticket for jobs like this. Good luck pard!
 
Thoughts on dealing with the disease?
Whatever you see fit, Sean. The school is lucky to have you as an asset. Either way you are invested in this project, so you might as well list options to them as Cody mentioned. If a tree is hazardous, or will become hazardous to the point of a very high dollar removal in the foreseeable future, you could save the schoolboard money by removing trees earlier on.

Thoughts on a machine for moving logs?

If you can't get a logger and skidder in there, look into a renting a tracked skid steer. You can rent one for a week, delivered for about $1000 I'd bet. At least 10000lbs, if not a 12000lb machine with a grapple. If you can't get a grapple, I'm sure you can rig something to skid logs out. As long as the ground is flat, I wouldn't worry about the log getting wild on you. These machines are capable of moving some serious weight. As long as you aren't tipping them forward at all, and the tracks lay flat on the ground, they will distribute weight very evenly.

Thoughts on all the brush? I could move my chipper out to the branches with the mini (I think) and chip, but seems like a lot of hard work. I can hire in a tractor with a bigger grapple, a 30 yard end dump at $350 per load, use my mini with grapple to forward, etc.

You could use the skid steer as well to move the chipper or forward brush if you rented it, but you might as well broadcast chips on site, or burn on site for the lowest cost possible; if cost is the objective.

Thoughts on understory rebound over the summer before the kids return (again, emotional impact if it looks like a moonscape at their beloved preschool.

A tracked machine is not going to destroy the root systems of all of these plants if operated correctly. You can spread or broadcast chips back onto skid trails. That's not moonscaped in my eyes. The way I see it, unless you're going to be provided with a larger budget for zero impact removals... crane, grapple truck, etc.. there is usually some compromise to impact on the property.
 
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I am one of the decision makers, as part of the Board of Directors, about 8 on the board in all. They look to Amy and I as the authorities, as nobody else has the back ground.

I'm aiming to give education, my two cents that its worrisome to me personally and objectively, and some examples.

I hadn't thought about burning, but that would probably not fly.


I'll be back there on Tuesday for class with D, and get a few more pictures and measurements.

Thanks, BT.
 
Any forwarders up your way.
That is what I use for such a scenario.
They can get both the wood and brush out for you and with the right operator, do minimal damage.
 
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My friend Dan, with the grapple/ knuckleboom truck, just bought a new tractor. He bought a brush grapple for it. I don't know how big to say the tractor is, but, might be 40 hp. He lives 1 minute from the preschool, too.

I don't know if the tractor could simply skid them out, or not, nor do I know if he'd want to take that on with the tractor. Its been a consideration.

My neighbor is a logger, and there is logging outfit around the corner, so to speak. They usually handle larger parcels, and I don't want a warzone. I am not sure what size machines they have, or their interest, but I have stopped by neighbor Charlie's house. Charlie's other neighbor is Lennie, with the bandsaw mill. Lennie also has a Cat dozer, but it might be pretty rough both in condition, and impact.

It might be one strip of main impact where a tracked machine could just go in and out without really turning. Mostly the tree are vertical, and if not could probably be pulled to the desired lay.


What to bid is so out of my realm of experience.
 
Since you're a residential Arborist by trade, bid the job to cover you're rates to get the trees down safely and skidded to a zone where they can be picked up and chip all the brush leaving it on-site. Have a self loader come in a take em to the mill once they're decked. Any profits made from the logs could be put back into the school or cover your expenses. I'm not a logger, so this is how I would do it. This will give you the control to keep the area as naturalized as possible, do the job safely and not be guessing on how much you might make after the logs go to mill.
 
Logging without leaving a mark is hard to make happen. The best way to handle it is map out skid trails and areas to get banged up and restore them. Unless you are using a helicopter or crane, things have to hit the ground and things have to be able to drive in an drag those logs out and land them. It will almost always leave some impact. Less so on a small job like that. The key is to designate areas of impact and a plan for restoration.
 
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We are supposed to go look at the site today but its high winds. We will see. Part of the adjacent property owners private owners which would be easier to deal with, part is the school district. I've done work for the school district before and know the people there. They parked their extremely expensive to repair school buses right next to some of this area. one tree taking out three or four buses would screw the school pretty hard I think. When I worked in there bus parking lot before removing a few trees and and weight reducing a big fur that over hung the buses, one person told me how extensive the process was for repairing a school bus roof.
 
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If I need to rent a machine for dragging these out, what would be my best option, short of a small skidder, which I will look into?

I think the biggest butt lots are probably 30", after cutting out any rot. On average, more likely 26". My normal hauler probably has too small of a truck for this operation, perhaps. Advise. He can carry about 1000 board feet of doug-fir at a time, preferably 16" plus trim, up to 20" plus trim. Rear axle weight is the issue. Single axle F800.

Shorter logs will give more scale, but more loads, to a point. I don't know how short of logs a 'typical' self-loader log truck can haul. Shorter logs would mean less log impact, I would think, but more trips, if two logs are too much to pull.

A local guy had a 30 yard end dump with a prentice loader. I don't know if that would be the next size up truck, double rear duals. Don't know the make, or if he has a drop axle. I don't know what he'd charge, as he is normally brush/ stump disposal, and builds the disposal cost into the load price.


10 miles, 20 minutes, according to Google maps each way to the log yard.
 
Call the mill and find out minimum size. A tri axle will take 8 footers, naturally. You won't get less ground disturbance by cutting them small. Dragging logs is dragging logs. Cut them for max dollar yield and put that money towards property improvement. I'm sort of thinking you might be best off to just do it all as a residential style job. That's not an insult, but you can only circumvent the realities of skidding logs to a small extent. Hire a forwarder to come in if you don't want to skid logs too.
 
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all advice is appreciated.

I just had another look at it , as I had to go to the preschool anyhow. I think there's an area to get a chipper in , with a mini , and broadcasts tip on site. Stripping and topping the trees closest to the school and playground can allowed an narrower fall zone profile by felling spars. This for spare would be very point-n-shoot.

.I spotted a skid road that could stay on the periphery of the property. It looks pretty good and wouldn't damage the area closest to the school much. If the neighbor were to allow us to fell out into their property it might work out really well for the one area that wrapped the playground and two out buildings. Pull trees, but not heavy pulls. if the preschool wasn't behind it, they would be fine to beat over with wedges.

Climbing mantling of trees has a much, much, much lower rate for WC than logging. That's a real factor here. I can shoot a line high into these trees and preset lines, Wraptor up, strip limbs with 4 groundies feeding the chipper. Dumping all spars would keep from having a"traffic jam". I can move all the tops.
 
8 foot lengths are for hobby mills here. But then you could use the boxer. Even 16,6 with the Stein cart and boxer is doable on flatish ground
 
would you be able to rig up a zip line to lower and them move the logs with limited damage to the understory? will be interested in how this operation goes.
 
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8 foot lengths are for hobby mills here. But then you could use the boxer. Even 16,6 with the Stein cart and boxer is doable on flatish ground

Skidding isn't a problem, as impact is an inevitability. I would like to keep the impact down though, closest to the school and playground. If I can pick up the smaller end with an arch, I could likely roll a lot of them. I don't have an obligation to get every log to the mill. I think the biggest are near the neighbor's property line, with possibly cleared, undeveloped land over there. I don't know what truck access will be like, not neighbors' willingness. Perhaps bribing with firewood will help.

I should buy a clinometer to measure heights, and get some tools for scaling while standing, as possible. Get some idea of the wood value. Maybe prices will have rebounded more going into summer.
 
I would too if you think you'll use it more than this job, otherwise I think I'd just get by with a Stein cart
 
Most mills do not want 8' lengths because their loaders cannot pick them up efficiently. If it is a stud mill they will want either 16'8" or 18'3". If it is a specialty or all around mill probably 16'6". But call them first. Sorry didn't read all the thread. If you have a log that is too big to deal with maybe make something out of it for the kids. A 4x4 tractor with a winch on the 3 point would move any of it with little damage.
 
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Most mills do not want 8' lengths because their loaders cannot pick them up efficiently. If it is a stud mill they will want either 16'8" or 18'3". If it is a specialty or all around mill probably 16'6". But call them first. Sorry didn't read all the thread. If you have a log that is too big to deal with maybe make something out of it for the kids. A 4x4 tractor with a winch on the 3 point would move any of it with little damage.

is this a pto driven hydraulic winch, or 12v winch that you're thinking of?


a 4x4 rental tractor is readily available. My friend Dan (knuckleboom grapple truck man) has a new tractor. I"ll check in with him. 40hp.

Maybe no winch, just skidding.

If I strip some trees and chip, I might be able to chip onto planned skid path, reducing impact. Native shrubs should push through IF I don't pile it deep, just a couple inches. hmmm.
 
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